Amos Chapter 5: Bible Study by Atheists

[00:00:00] Welcome to Sacrilegious Discourse.

[00:00:01] For this is what the Sovereign Lord says!

[00:00:03] Why do you need prophets to tell people who you are and what you want?

[00:00:07] If you can justify everything that the God of the Bible has done, then you can justify any of your behavior.

[00:00:14] A lot of this mentality is trickling into what is now mainstream right-wing Christianity.

[00:00:21] I am capable of empathy greater than this God of the Bible.

[00:00:26] This is a Bible that they tell kids.

[00:00:29] This is the good Lord.

[00:00:31] This is the good book.

[00:00:32] He is fantasizing about murder.

[00:00:36] Mass murder.

[00:00:37] Head over to SacrilegiousDiscourse.com right now to find out how to leave us a review or support us on Patreon.

[00:00:48] Wife!

[00:00:49] Do you know where we are?

[00:00:50] Cause we just recorded an episode.

[00:00:53] We just got done reading Amos Chapter 4.

[00:00:56] We sure as fuck did.

[00:00:57] And in that episode, there was more of the same basically.

[00:01:02] Let's see.

[00:01:03] God is pissed off at the Israelites and he's going to kill them real bad because they are worshiping badly and they don't do what he wants them to do.

[00:01:11] So he's going to bring blight, drought, famine, death, you know, all the things.

[00:01:17] And he called the women cows.

[00:01:18] And he was skipping across the top of mountains.

[00:01:20] Yes.

[00:01:21] So there was that.

[00:01:22] Tra-la-la.

[00:01:23] Tra-la-la.

[00:01:25] But yeah, it's just more of the same.

[00:01:27] It is.

[00:01:28] It's more, God loves apparently to kill people.

[00:01:33] Like that is just his thing.

[00:01:35] Still.

[00:01:35] Still and always.

[00:01:37] So that was Amos Chapter 4.

[00:01:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:01:40] Which means that today we're getting into...

[00:01:42] Amos Chapter 5.

[00:01:44] All right, let's do this.

[00:01:45] Okie dokie.

[00:01:51] All righty, let's jump into Amos Chapter 5.

[00:01:55] All right.

[00:01:56] Hear this word, Israel.

[00:01:58] I'm going to...

[00:01:58] I guess I got to hear it.

[00:01:59] This lament I take up concerning you.

[00:02:02] A lament, huh?

[00:02:03] Ya fuckers.

[00:02:04] Okay.

[00:02:05] He's about to cry at how much they suck.

[00:02:08] Yeah.

[00:02:08] Okay.

[00:02:09] Fallen is virgin Israel, never to rise again.

[00:02:14] Deserted in her own land with no one to lift her up.

[00:02:19] So God's not going to lift him up?

[00:02:20] This is what the Sovereign Lord says to Israel.

[00:02:22] Okay.

[00:02:23] Your city that marches out a thousand strong will have only a hundred left.

[00:02:29] Mm.

[00:02:29] Your town that marches out a hundred strong will have only ten left.

[00:02:34] So basically everybody but like one-tenth of whoever it is is going to die?

[00:02:39] Yeah.

[00:02:39] Okay.

[00:02:39] That's math.

[00:02:40] Got it.

[00:02:40] That's good solid math.

[00:02:41] Okay.

[00:02:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:43] This is what the Sovereign Lord says to Israel.

[00:02:45] Okay.

[00:02:46] Seek me and live.

[00:02:47] Do not seek Bethel.

[00:02:49] Do not go to Gilgal.

[00:02:50] Do not journey to Beersheba.

[00:02:52] Because they worship the wrong Yahweh.

[00:02:55] Right.

[00:02:55] And you should know this because that guy down the street is telling you so.

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:02:58] Don't listen to the other five prophets.

[00:03:00] Just this one.

[00:03:02] For Gilgal will surely go into exile and Bethel will be reduced to nothing.

[00:03:10] Seek the Lord and live or he will sweep through the tribes of Joseph like a fucking fire.

[00:03:16] Wow.

[00:03:17] Yeah.

[00:03:18] Worship me or die.

[00:03:20] Why aren't you choosing me?

[00:03:22] That's pretty much the ultimatum he always gives.

[00:03:24] Yeah.

[00:03:24] It will devour them and Bethel will have no one to quench it.

[00:03:28] There are those who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground.

[00:03:34] He who made the Pleiades and Orion who turns midnight into dawn and darkens day into night

[00:03:41] who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land.

[00:03:46] I.

[00:03:47] The Lord is his name.

[00:03:48] I wonder and I have to ask because they're mentioned here.

[00:03:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:52] But where did the names like Orion and Pleiades come from?

[00:03:56] Because I thought those were more like Greek and Roman type things.

[00:03:59] Well, I mean, the Bible was translated into a Greek Vulgate.

[00:04:04] No, I get it.

[00:04:04] I get it.

[00:04:05] But that's an interesting like injection into the Bible there.

[00:04:08] Right?

[00:04:09] Yeah.

[00:04:09] Like that would almost indicate that God is referencing God because this is the word of

[00:04:13] God.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:14] Is referencing other gods maybe.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:17] In a weird roundabout way.

[00:04:18] In a weird roundabout way.

[00:04:19] But that was an interesting little.

[00:04:21] I thought that too.

[00:04:22] I just, I, that's something I would want to know more about.

[00:04:26] Okay.

[00:04:26] So.

[00:04:27] I'm curious about that.

[00:04:28] I'm curious what it says in other translations.

[00:04:30] And I'm curious about the origins of the, the names of the, the constellations too, because

[00:04:35] I, I, you know, just sitting here as we're reading through the Bible, I didn't come prepared

[00:04:39] to know about the constellations.

[00:04:41] So.

[00:04:41] Yeah.

[00:04:41] I'm definitely interested.

[00:04:43] Sure.

[00:04:43] Okay.

[00:04:44] All right.

[00:04:45] I said Greek Vulgate, but I think that's wrong.

[00:04:49] What's the Latin?

[00:04:50] It's Latin.

[00:04:50] Yeah.

[00:04:51] It's the Greek Septuagint.

[00:04:52] Septuagint.

[00:04:53] There you go.

[00:04:54] Okay.

[00:04:54] I just wanted to correct myself because I said the wrong thing.

[00:04:57] Yeah.

[00:04:57] Didn't want to be misleading.

[00:04:59] Right.

[00:05:00] With a blinding flash, he destroys the stronghold and brings the fortified city to ruin.

[00:05:06] There are those who hate the ones, the one who upholds justice in court and detest the

[00:05:12] one who tells the truth.

[00:05:14] There are those who hate me.

[00:05:15] Okay.

[00:05:16] Yeah.

[00:05:16] I mean, but he's not actually telling them.

[00:05:18] He's telling somebody else who's then telling them that thing that sort of.

[00:05:22] Also, I think we have different understandings of the word justice, my friend.

[00:05:25] Right.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:26] You levy a straw tax on the poor and impose a tax on their grain.

[00:05:31] Therefore, though you have built stone mansions, you will not live in them.

[00:05:35] Though you have planted lush vineyards, you will not drink their wine.

[00:05:39] For I know how many are your offenses and how great are your sins.

[00:05:44] There are those who oppress the innocent and take bribes and deprive the poor of justice

[00:05:50] in the courts.

[00:05:51] Therefore, the prudent keep quiet in such times for the times are evil.

[00:05:57] It's a, you know, in society, the poor and the oppressed tend to rise up every now and

[00:06:06] again.

[00:06:06] They get tired of getting stepped on.

[00:06:08] Right.

[00:06:08] Right.

[00:06:08] Right.

[00:06:08] So this, this feels a little bit like, because we had discussed this earlier at some point

[00:06:14] when we were talking about the older Old Testament, like when we were in Deuteronomy and Leviticus

[00:06:20] and all this kind of stuff, they defended the poor quite a bit back then.

[00:06:24] Right.

[00:06:25] And it ended like that.

[00:06:26] That thing ended in place of, you know, the, the priests who take all the things from them

[00:06:32] and all, whatever.

[00:06:33] And it feels like, because this is an older book of the Bible, right?

[00:06:36] Like it feels like this is that struggle between we're supposed to take care of the poor versus

[00:06:42] the priestly types are taking too much.

[00:06:46] And, and, and yes, that was always part of that, that tension that was there.

[00:06:51] But also there was the converse of that, which is, well, if you're poor, you must've done

[00:06:58] something to deserve it.

[00:06:59] Right.

[00:06:59] And these people that are, have the money surely deserve it.

[00:07:03] Well, and yeah, like that, there's the, what's the, the, I forget what it called the greed.

[00:07:09] Like some of the Christians ascribe to the fact that God makes them rich.

[00:07:14] Right.

[00:07:14] And they're like, I forget what they call it.

[00:07:16] There's a whole name for it, but I can't remember what it's called at the moment.

[00:07:18] And there's a lot of talk in the older Bible where that does not mesh up at all.

[00:07:24] Right.

[00:07:25] You know, and it just, it's interesting to me how people interpret what they want out

[00:07:30] of this text to mean whatever the fuck they want it to mean.

[00:07:33] Yeah.

[00:07:34] So that's all.

[00:07:35] Not good.

[00:07:36] No.

[00:07:37] Yeah.

[00:07:38] Speaking of which seek good, not evil that you may live.

[00:07:42] Okay.

[00:07:43] Then the Lord God almighty will be with you just as you say he is.

[00:07:47] Good and evil is kind of subjective, you know, terminology there.

[00:07:50] It's also very black and white lacking in any nuance.

[00:07:53] Right.

[00:07:53] But I'm saying like the ideas of what good and evil embody, those ideas are very subjective

[00:07:58] while they're referring to it in a very black and white manner.

[00:08:01] Right.

[00:08:01] Like let's talk about an 11 year old child who is raped being forced to carry the rapist

[00:08:09] child because the 11 year old child gets pregnant from it.

[00:08:13] Right.

[00:08:13] And everybody thinks that the abortion in that case would still be evil.

[00:08:18] Not everybody, but yes, the people that.

[00:08:20] The Christians.

[00:08:21] Right.

[00:08:21] Yeah.

[00:08:21] Or, you know, the Christians that meaner ones.

[00:08:24] Right.

[00:08:25] Right.

[00:08:25] Yeah.

[00:08:26] And, you know, that, that makes me think of that example because there's a prime example

[00:08:32] of not agreeing on the meaning of good and evil.

[00:08:37] Yeah.

[00:08:38] Among many other.

[00:08:39] Sure.

[00:08:39] Versions.

[00:08:40] And very, you know, like the, the problem with a lot of Christians is that these ideas

[00:08:46] of good and evil are nuanced and you have to take them.

[00:08:49] Case by case.

[00:08:50] Case by case.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:51] Right.

[00:08:51] It's not a matter of good versus evil.

[00:08:54] That is not a thing that exists.

[00:08:55] Right.

[00:08:56] So I, I just really hate that idea.

[00:08:59] I will say that I don't mind if we have a discussion about arguing over good for the

[00:09:07] individual versus good for the society, you know, but even that is going to require more

[00:09:14] nuance.

[00:09:14] I think the truth is that most conversations require nuance and they require digging into

[00:09:20] it to find out what the actual circumstances are.

[00:09:23] And everybody, not everybody, a lot of people in this world now and then want easy answers.

[00:09:30] They don't want to have to think about these things.

[00:09:32] Right.

[00:09:33] And, and God gives them every reason not to have to think about these things.

[00:09:36] Right.

[00:09:37] God in the Bible gives these very black and white, you know, just across the board answers

[00:09:41] for everything.

[00:09:42] Right.

[00:09:42] And it also allows you to escape from possibly making the wrong decision.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:48] Because, well, I didn't make that wrong decision.

[00:09:50] I'm just following God's word and it's not mine to understand.

[00:09:53] Right.

[00:09:53] So I'm sure it's part of God's plan.

[00:09:56] Must be.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:57] I mean, whatever.

[00:09:58] Not my fault.

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:59] Okay, bitch.

[00:10:02] Hate evil, love good.

[00:10:04] Maintain justice in the courts.

[00:10:06] Perhaps the Lord God Almighty will have mercy on the remnant of Joseph.

[00:10:10] You know, maybe.

[00:10:11] Perhaps.

[00:10:11] We'll see.

[00:10:12] Maybe not though.

[00:10:13] Right.

[00:10:13] Right.

[00:10:14] Therefore, this is what the Lord, the Lord God Almighty says.

[00:10:18] The Lord, the Lord God Almighty says.

[00:10:19] Lordy, Lordy, Lordy.

[00:10:21] Yeah.

[00:10:21] There will be wailing in all the streets and cries of anguish in every public square.

[00:10:27] The farmers will be summoned to weep and the mourners to wail.

[00:10:33] Whale.

[00:10:33] Whale.

[00:10:34] There will be wailing in all the vineyards for I will pass through your midst, says the

[00:10:39] Lord.

[00:10:40] Ah.

[00:10:41] Whale.

[00:10:42] To you who long for the day of the Lord.

[00:10:44] Oh, yeah.

[00:10:45] Okay.

[00:10:46] Why do you long for the day of the Lord?

[00:10:49] I would.

[00:10:50] What is.

[00:10:50] What did we decide what the day of the Lord is?

[00:10:53] Isn't that like the time when he's going to like bring judgment against all of humanity

[00:10:56] or something like that?

[00:10:57] Yeah.

[00:10:57] So these are like the people today that are looking forward to.

[00:11:00] Love it.

[00:11:00] Can't wait.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:02] But he's like, but why though?

[00:11:04] Right.

[00:11:04] That day, he says.

[00:11:05] Yeah.

[00:11:06] Will be a darkness, not light.

[00:11:08] It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear as though he entered his

[00:11:15] house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him.

[00:11:19] Hmm.

[00:11:20] Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light, pitch dark without a ray of brightness?

[00:11:27] I don't know.

[00:11:28] Will it?

[00:11:28] Will it?

[00:11:29] I hate.

[00:11:30] I despise your religious festivals.

[00:11:33] Your assemblies are a stench to me.

[00:11:36] Huh?

[00:11:36] Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.

[00:11:40] Oh, okay.

[00:11:42] Because I thought that he was the one that was in charge of making all these ceremonies

[00:11:45] and festivals happen.

[00:11:46] But he's saying that you're doing them wrong.

[00:11:48] Wrong.

[00:11:48] You're going through the motions instead of with feeling.

[00:11:52] Okay.

[00:11:52] All right.

[00:11:53] Like, you're letting the actions describe you as a person, but your thoughts and your

[00:12:01] other actions, not on Sundays, your Monday through Saturday actions prove that you are

[00:12:08] not correct.

[00:12:09] Got it.

[00:12:10] Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no record for them.

[00:12:15] I will have no pumpkins for them.

[00:12:19] Anyway, away with the noise of your songs.

[00:12:22] I will not listen to the music of your harps.

[00:12:25] Fuck those harps.

[00:12:26] Isn't it questionable whether or not God likes music in the first place?

[00:12:29] I hate music except for when I love it, says God.

[00:12:33] I'm just saying.

[00:12:34] I don't know.

[00:12:34] I thought we had discussed that before where it's like, does God allow for song?

[00:12:38] Sometimes.

[00:12:39] Sometimes.

[00:12:40] Just depends.

[00:12:41] Right.

[00:12:42] But let justice roll on like a river.

[00:12:45] Righteousness like a never failing stream.

[00:12:48] Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings 40 years in the wilderness, people of Israel?

[00:12:53] You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your stars, or I'm sorry, the

[00:12:59] pedestal of your idols, the star of your God, which you made for yourselves.

[00:13:05] Oh, that's an interesting question.

[00:13:07] He says, did you bring me sacrifices and offerings 40 years in the wilderness?

[00:13:12] He's like, you didn't have to then because you were following me.

[00:13:17] Right.

[00:13:18] And even though I was mad at you, I wasn't like, I'm still there with you.

[00:13:22] Right.

[00:13:23] You know, like I didn't require this of you, but now you're here with an easy life in the

[00:13:29] city, whatever, you know, you're not traveling.

[00:13:32] Yeah.

[00:13:32] And you have like now I'm asking you to do something else instead.

[00:13:35] Instead of traveling with me, I am asking you to make the sacrifices and you're not doing

[00:13:43] it right.

[00:13:44] Right.

[00:13:44] Right.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:47] It's just interesting.

[00:13:48] Yeah.

[00:13:48] I don't know.

[00:13:48] I'm trying to think that through as, as we're sitting here talking, but he wasn't real happy

[00:13:54] with them while they were in the wilderness.

[00:13:55] No, no.

[00:13:56] And that's partly why they were there for 40 years.

[00:13:58] So.

[00:13:58] Right.

[00:13:58] Right.

[00:13:58] But he, but he seems even less enthralled with them now that they're like going through

[00:14:04] these motions in the city, even though they are doing what he, they have been asked to do,

[00:14:09] I guess.

[00:14:09] Right.

[00:14:10] Just not with meaning.

[00:14:11] But I don't know that they had meaning back when they were following Moses.

[00:14:14] They were, I mean, he went up to the mountain to talk to God and they came in, Moses came

[00:14:18] down and they were worshiping the fucking golden calf.

[00:14:21] Right.

[00:14:21] Right.

[00:14:21] That was the thing.

[00:14:22] Right.

[00:14:23] So, I mean, it was happening all along.

[00:14:24] Like there was never a point where they weren't worshiping wrong.

[00:14:28] Yeah.

[00:14:29] That's true.

[00:14:29] That is true.

[00:14:30] It's just interesting.

[00:14:31] Yeah.

[00:14:32] And I think it's a convenient way to keep people in check.

[00:14:36] Right.

[00:14:36] It's not, it's not about whether they were worshiping right or wrong doing, doing right

[00:14:40] or wrong.

[00:14:41] It's just, if you keep people in constant fear of something, then you have some sort

[00:14:46] of a motivating factor to keep them in line with regard to society, with regard to laws,

[00:14:52] with regard to what you want them.

[00:14:53] Like you can control them at that point.

[00:14:56] Never not be afraid.

[00:14:57] Right.

[00:14:58] I mean, well, yeah, but I think that's the general mantra of people in charge.

[00:15:03] Never not have your people not be afraid.

[00:15:05] Yeah.

[00:15:06] Right.

[00:15:06] Like they always need to be scared of something because then you can control their actions.

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:11] And, and remind them how much they suck all the time so that they never feel like going

[00:15:18] elsewhere because they, they suck.

[00:15:20] And that very much applies even still today.

[00:15:22] Yeah.

[00:15:22] Yeah.

[00:15:24] Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus says the Lord, whose name is God

[00:15:29] almighty.

[00:15:29] The end.

[00:15:30] Is it God?

[00:15:31] Okay.

[00:15:31] Yeah.

[00:15:32] And there's more exile and, and, and wonderful shit.

[00:15:36] Yeah.

[00:15:36] I guess.

[00:15:37] Yay.

[00:15:37] God.

[00:15:38] He's so awesome.

[00:15:41] And no way whatsoever.

[00:15:42] Right.

[00:15:43] Right.

[00:15:44] I, I don't, I don't like this book because it's just like, it's all God punishing people.

[00:15:53] Yeah.

[00:15:53] It's all.

[00:15:54] But really it's not even all God punishing people is God talking about punishing people.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:59] Right.

[00:15:59] Nothing is happening.

[00:16:00] He's just like, I hate you.

[00:16:02] I hate you.

[00:16:03] I'm going to punch you in the eye.

[00:16:04] I hate you.

[00:16:05] Right.

[00:16:05] Yeah.

[00:16:06] It's, it's not great.

[00:16:07] I mean, it, and it, it is more of the same, but it's all just kind of like one after another,

[00:16:13] after another, right?

[00:16:14] Exactly.

[00:16:15] Yeah.

[00:16:15] Like this is just like punishment, punishment, punishment, punishment, punishment, punishment.

[00:16:18] And you should probably lick my boots too.

[00:16:20] Right.

[00:16:21] I thought you were going to say, lick my balls.

[00:16:26] Sorry.

[00:16:26] Go on.

[00:16:27] No, that was all I really had.

[00:16:28] It was just, I, I, I don't like this.

[00:16:31] I, this whole aspect of what the God of the Bible is, is just kind of wrong and disturbing

[00:16:36] in my mind.

[00:16:37] Yeah.

[00:16:38] So that's not like, I don't appreciate it.

[00:16:40] Me neither.

[00:16:41] Anyway, that was Amos chapter five.

[00:16:44] Sure as fuck was.

[00:16:44] Um, which means that I will be getting out the, oh, well, no, we have to do the, uh,

[00:16:49] Q and a, right?

[00:16:50] So we're going to be doing, uh, it won't be on a Saturday.

[00:16:52] So it's a Q and a, not on Saturday.

[00:16:56] And then after we get that finished up, I will be doing, um, a weekly wrap up, but somewhere

[00:17:03] in there, we'll also have a special episode because we do our weekly, uh, discord on Wednesdays

[00:17:09] at 10, 8, 10 PM Eastern time.

[00:17:12] And if you haven't joined us on discord yet, you should do it now.

[00:17:15] Click on the link down on the show notes and head over there to join us for the live at

[00:17:19] 10 PM Eastern on discord.

[00:17:21] Yes.

[00:17:22] And that being said, we will see you next time.

[00:17:24] Bye.