Bible Study by Atheists Weekly: Obadiah Chapter 1 plus Q&A, Wrap Up, Contradictions and Specials!

[00:00:00] Welcome to Sacrilegious Discourse. For this is what the Sovereign Lord says! Why do you need prophets to tell people who you are and what you want? If you can justify everything that the God of the Bible has done, then you can justify any of your behavior. A lot of this mentality is trickling into what is now mainstream right-wing Christianity. I am capable of empathy greater than this God of the Bible. This is a Bible that they tell kids.

[00:00:29] This is the good Lord. This is the good book. He is fantasizing about murder. Mass murder.

[00:00:37] Head over to Sacrilegious Discourse.com right now to find out how to leave us a review or support us on Patreon.

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[00:01:39] Wife!

[00:01:39] Do you know what we're doing today?

[00:01:42] Well, we are starting a new book of the Bible.

[00:01:45] Sure as fuck are.

[00:01:46] Yeah, so what are we doing today?

[00:01:48] We're gonna start Obadiah.

[00:01:50] And what else are we gonna do today?

[00:01:52] We're gonna finish Obadiah.

[00:01:54] It took you up and over.

[00:01:55] I was like, what?

[00:01:57] We have a plan?

[00:01:57] What?

[00:01:58] I thought for a second I was like, did we plan a plan?

[00:02:02] What's a plan?

[00:02:03] It's just a short book.

[00:02:05] It's just funny.

[00:02:06] It's literally one page.

[00:02:08] Not one page front and back.

[00:02:09] No.

[00:02:10] Just the front of one page.

[00:02:11] Right, right.

[00:02:12] But that being said, we do have an announcement to make today that is, we have a new patron.

[00:02:18] What?

[00:02:18] Yeah, and this patron deserves an entire book of the Bible.

[00:02:23] They do.

[00:02:23] Yeah.

[00:02:24] They do.

[00:02:24] So, it's our first, what level was it?

[00:02:28] A million stars in the sky.

[00:02:33] Yeah, they're our highest donor thus far.

[00:02:36] Yeah.

[00:02:36] Yeah.

[00:02:37] And I just really want to thank Frederick for joining our, not our Discord, our Patreon.

[00:02:45] Yeah.

[00:02:46] And supporting us there.

[00:02:47] We, this level actually offers our patrons a phone call.

[00:02:51] Oh, yeah.

[00:02:51] So, we actually called Frederick today.

[00:02:53] And had a lovely conversation.

[00:02:55] He's a wonderful human being.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:58] No, it was a great conversation.

[00:02:59] We talked for like an hour and it was really amazing.

[00:03:02] And I just want to read something from them that they wrote when they joined.

[00:03:10] So, he says, proud Appalachian, Appalachian?

[00:03:14] Appalachian.

[00:03:15] Atheist here.

[00:03:16] Former Pentecostal holiness, snake handling, tongue speaking, faith healing, fire and brimstone

[00:03:21] preaching preacher.

[00:03:23] Turned gay heathen.

[00:03:24] Often, I find myself bitching at you all as the former apologetic.

[00:03:29] Not that I believe what I'm saying just to entertain myself.

[00:03:32] I wish I could have experienced something like this during my deconstruction days.

[00:03:36] I would have educated myself much sooner and broke free from the generational trauma caused by religion.

[00:03:41] And in particular, the call to Pentecostalism.

[00:03:44] So, this is my support for the good fight and the righteous fight that we have been ordained by logic and reason to do.

[00:03:51] There's more, but I thought that was a great little bit there.

[00:03:54] Yeah, that is so perfect.

[00:03:56] And perfect for the times too, because now more than ever, as the saying goes, we really do need to fight the good fight.

[00:04:04] And it's daunting with what we're up against.

[00:04:10] But people like Frederick make it just so humbling and exciting at the same time.

[00:04:18] Definitely, definitely.

[00:04:18] And I just, I can't be thankful enough for this.

[00:04:21] But I do want to say that with support from people like Frederick and people that have been supporting us for quite some time now, it does make a difference.

[00:04:32] We are able to do more.

[00:04:34] We are able to bring more to this and get the word out about our podcast more.

[00:04:39] So, every donor, every person who donates helps us tremendously.

[00:04:45] Absolutely.

[00:04:45] And if you want to help out as well.

[00:04:48] And are able.

[00:04:49] And are able.

[00:04:51] Go to patreon.com forward slash sacrilegious discourse.

[00:04:54] We have plans starting as low as $1 a month.

[00:04:57] Now, the free, the ad free stuff starts at $2 a month.

[00:05:01] But just for $1 a month, you can help support our, you know, what we're doing here and move things forward a bit for us.

[00:05:08] And also get free access to the Patreon only episodes that we do.

[00:05:13] Yeah.

[00:05:13] And we're in the middle of a really cool series right now that we just started called Cults Versus Religion.

[00:05:20] Yeah.

[00:05:21] Which we'll be doing another episode this week.

[00:05:22] Yep.

[00:05:23] Definitely.

[00:05:24] So, and if you can't do Patreon, but you really, really want to hear this episode, be sure to join us on Wednesdays at 10 p.m. Eastern.

[00:05:35] On Discord.

[00:05:36] On Discord for our live and you can hear it then.

[00:05:39] Yeah, definitely.

[00:05:41] So, just one last time.

[00:05:42] Thank you, Frederick.

[00:05:43] Thank you so much, Frederick.

[00:05:45] Really, very much.

[00:05:46] And that being said, are you ready to hop into the beginning and end of Obadiah?

[00:05:52] Sure as fuck am.

[00:05:53] All right, let's do this.

[00:05:54] Okie dokie.

[00:06:00] All right, let's hop into Obadiah.

[00:06:02] Let's do it.

[00:06:03] Okay, but before we hop into Obadiah.

[00:06:05] Okay.

[00:06:06] I thought I'd give a little bit of who dat.

[00:06:08] Yeah, sure.

[00:06:09] Or as the Bengals say, who day.

[00:06:12] I mean, we are in Dayton, Ohio, so that is relevant to us anyway.

[00:06:16] Yeah.

[00:06:17] Yeah.

[00:06:17] Yeah.

[00:06:17] So, this whole book, chapter one.

[00:06:22] Yeah.

[00:06:23] Book.

[00:06:24] Yep.

[00:06:24] It's about judgment against Israel's brother, the humbling of Edom.

[00:06:30] Oh, okay.

[00:06:31] Yeah.

[00:06:31] So, we're going to bitch at the Edomites some more.

[00:06:34] So, we got a whole book of the Bible dedicated to bitching at the Edomites?

[00:06:37] To be fair, it's only a page.

[00:06:39] So, yes.

[00:06:39] Right.

[00:06:40] I know.

[00:06:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:06:41] I got it.

[00:06:42] The book of Obadiah is a prophecy concerning the fall and the subsequent divine judgment

[00:06:49] of Edom, a mountain-dwelling nation whose founding father was?

[00:06:54] Edom?

[00:06:55] Esau.

[00:06:55] Esau.

[00:06:56] Yeah.

[00:06:56] I don't...

[00:06:57] Why did you put me on the spot like that?

[00:06:59] Wife looks at me like she wants me to answer the question.

[00:07:01] I'm like, I don't fucking know.

[00:07:03] I wanted you to guess or...

[00:07:05] Who was it?

[00:07:05] A lot of times you do remember.

[00:07:07] Got it.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] Esau.

[00:07:08] And that was Jacob's brother.

[00:07:10] Right.

[00:07:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:11] You know, the one who actually should have got the birthright, if we're being honest.

[00:07:15] Yeah.

[00:07:15] The hairy dude.

[00:07:17] Yeah.

[00:07:17] That's the one.

[00:07:18] You know, because...

[00:07:19] No, I remember because he put...

[00:07:20] Okay.

[00:07:20] Yeah.

[00:07:20] Okay.

[00:07:22] Jacob put some hairy animal arms skin on himself.

[00:07:26] Yeah, he created hairy hair for him.

[00:07:27] To steal the birthright.

[00:07:29] Yeah.

[00:07:29] Yeah.

[00:07:29] Right.

[00:07:30] So, authorship of this book is attributed to Obadiah, who describes an encounter with Yahweh.

[00:07:36] However, didn't get very far.

[00:07:39] No, no, yeah.

[00:07:40] The date of composition is disputed and is difficult to determine due to the lack of personal information

[00:07:47] about Obadiah, his family, and his historical background, given that, again, this entire book

[00:07:53] is only one page.

[00:07:55] Go figure.

[00:07:56] One, you know, a book of the Bible and a writer in the Bible is hard to verify and may

[00:08:00] or may not have lived when they thought they lived or...

[00:08:02] And we have no idea when because it's only one page long.

[00:08:06] Yeah.

[00:08:07] The date must, therefore, be estimated, of course, based on the words within the prophecy

[00:08:13] itself.

[00:08:14] Okay.

[00:08:15] Okay.

[00:08:15] So, Edom in this chapter is about to be destroyed due to its lack of defense for its brother

[00:08:21] nation, Israel, which, I mean, that's what we've been reading about thus far.

[00:08:25] Yeah.

[00:08:25] And when it...

[00:08:27] That was when it was under attack.

[00:08:28] So, there are two major historical contexts within which the Edomites could have committed

[00:08:34] this act.

[00:08:36] Okay.

[00:08:36] Okay.

[00:08:36] So, knowing that helps us place it with either one or the other and historicals, historians

[00:08:45] prefer one to the other.

[00:08:47] Got it.

[00:08:47] If I had to guess, we're talking about either the Syrian invasion or the Babylonian invasion.

[00:08:52] Oh my God, you're smart.

[00:08:54] Yeah.

[00:08:54] And if they had to guess also, based on where it is in the Bible, probably they choose the

[00:08:58] Syrian invasion.

[00:09:00] Let's read this little bit and find out.

[00:09:02] Okay.

[00:09:03] All right.

[00:09:03] So, the first time period was 853 to 841 BCE when Jerusalem was being invaded by the Philistines

[00:09:12] and Arabs during the reign of Jehoram of Judah.

[00:09:16] And that bit was described in Kings chapter 8 and...

[00:09:21] Or, I'm sorry.

[00:09:22] Yeah.

[00:09:23] Kings chapter 8 and 2 Chronicles chapter 21.

[00:09:26] Okay.

[00:09:27] Okay.

[00:09:28] Or, the other time period was during 607 to 586 BCE when Jerusalem was attacked by Nebuchadnezzar

[00:09:38] of Babylon, which led to the Babylonian exile of Israel as described in Psalm 137.

[00:09:44] Okay.

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:46] The earlier time period places Obadiah as a contemporary of the prophet Elijah.

[00:09:52] Right.

[00:09:53] And the later date places Obadiah as a contemporary of the prophet Jeremiah, which scholars agree

[00:10:01] is the most likely since Obadiah 1 through 9 actually parallels Jeremiah chapter 49 verses 7 through 22.

[00:10:11] Oh.

[00:10:12] Okay.

[00:10:12] A passage that dates from the fourth year of the reign of Joachim.

[00:10:16] Joachim.

[00:10:17] I always say it wrong.

[00:10:19] In 604 BCE.

[00:10:21] Okay.

[00:10:21] Okay.

[00:10:22] So, Obadiah 11 through 14 seems to refer to the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

[00:10:28] in 586 BCE.

[00:10:31] Okay.

[00:10:31] All right.

[00:10:31] So, that's the guess.

[00:10:32] Got it.

[00:10:33] It's more likely that Obadiah and the book of Jeremiah together were drawing on a common

[00:10:40] source presently unknown than that Jeremiah drew on previous writings of Obadiah as its source.

[00:10:50] Got it.

[00:10:50] So, it's more likely what I'm saying is if Obadiah had been written during that earlier

[00:10:56] time, then Jeremiah would have been basing his writings on Obadiah.

[00:11:01] Got it.

[00:11:01] And that's not very likely.

[00:11:03] It's more likely since they parallel each other that they were written during the same time

[00:11:09] period drawing on a similar source.

[00:11:11] Okay.

[00:11:12] Okay.

[00:11:12] So, there is also a lot of material in Obadiah chapters, or I'm sorry, verses 10 through

[00:11:19] 21 that would very much have suited Jeremiah.

[00:11:23] Got it.

[00:11:23] So, that are things that Jeremiah would very much approve of having been written had he,

[00:11:28] you know, written them himself.

[00:11:29] Got it.

[00:11:30] So, that's when we think.

[00:11:32] Okay.

[00:11:32] Yeah.

[00:11:33] And I just wanted to give that little intro before we hop into this very not long chapter.

[00:11:39] Got it.

[00:11:40] Okay.

[00:11:40] You ready?

[00:11:41] I'm ready.

[00:11:41] Obadiah chapter one.

[00:11:43] All right.

[00:11:43] The only chapter.

[00:11:44] Yeah.

[00:11:44] Okay.

[00:11:45] The vision of Obadiah.

[00:11:47] Okay.

[00:11:48] This is what the sovereign Lord says about Edom.

[00:11:51] We have heard a message from the Lord.

[00:11:54] Yes, we have.

[00:11:55] Haven't we?

[00:11:55] I mean, we've heard a few.

[00:11:57] A couple will be in this book.

[00:11:58] We have.

[00:11:59] Yeah.

[00:11:59] Right.

[00:11:59] An envoy was sent to the nations to say, rise, let us go against her for battle.

[00:12:06] See, I will make you small among the nations.

[00:12:09] You will be utterly despised.

[00:12:11] The pride of your heart has deceived you.

[00:12:14] You who live in the clefts of the rocks and make your home on the heights.

[00:12:19] You who say to yourself, who can bring me down to the ground?

[00:12:22] Though you soar like the eagle.

[00:12:25] Star like the eagle.

[00:12:27] There's something wrong with dwelling in the mountains.

[00:12:31] Into the future.

[00:12:31] That's a bad thing?

[00:12:33] I...

[00:12:33] Seems like it maybe.

[00:12:34] Well, I mean high places.

[00:12:36] Yeah.

[00:12:37] Okay.

[00:12:37] Sure.

[00:12:37] Whatever.

[00:12:38] Though you soar like the eagle.

[00:12:40] Into the future.

[00:12:41] And make your nest among the stars.

[00:12:44] All the stars in the sky.

[00:12:45] Yeah.

[00:12:46] From there I will bring you down, declares the Lord.

[00:12:49] Of course he will.

[00:12:49] Yeah.

[00:12:49] I don't like...

[00:12:50] That's what he does.

[00:12:51] That's what God does best.

[00:12:52] I don't like anybody being happy.

[00:12:53] No.

[00:12:54] Fuck those happy happies.

[00:12:55] Right?

[00:12:56] If thieves came to you, if robbers in the night, ah, what a disaster waits you, would

[00:13:03] they not steal only as much as they wanted?

[00:13:06] If grape pickers came to you, would they not leave a few grapes?

[00:13:11] But how Esau will be ransacked.

[00:13:14] His hidden treasures pillaged.

[00:13:17] Those fuckers.

[00:13:18] Mmm.

[00:13:19] All your allies will force you to the border.

[00:13:21] Your friends will deceive and overpower you.

[00:13:24] Those who eat your bread will set a trap for you.

[00:13:26] But you will not detect it.

[00:13:28] Na-na-na-na boo-boo.

[00:13:29] This is...

[00:13:31] I just don't understand.

[00:13:33] God loves to tell people, hey, ha, you're gonna be destroyed.

[00:13:37] I know.

[00:13:38] He says, you're not even gonna know what's gonna happen.

[00:13:40] And you're gonna be destroyed.

[00:13:41] Yep.

[00:13:42] Death is a common.

[00:13:44] Na-na-na-na-na boo-boo.

[00:13:45] But it's never for anything that justifies...

[00:13:47] Like, I mean, okay, look.

[00:13:49] There's nothing that justifies people dying.

[00:13:51] Right.

[00:13:52] Unless you're fighting someone specifically to keep them from killing you.

[00:13:56] Right?

[00:13:57] Like, there is nothing really that, in my mind, rises to the level of these groups of

[00:14:03] people deserve to die.

[00:14:04] Right.

[00:14:05] Right?

[00:14:05] But all throughout the Bible, we talk about how God thinks these groups of people deserve

[00:14:11] to die.

[00:14:12] Yeah.

[00:14:13] And it's just...

[00:14:13] It's disgusting to me.

[00:14:14] Here's the thing.

[00:14:15] I can see how people can get there.

[00:14:18] Because let me just present you with this example.

[00:14:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:21] Okay?

[00:14:22] What are those movies that Keanu Reeves is in where he's a gangster because he's trying

[00:14:28] to...

[00:14:28] And he's trying to get out of it.

[00:14:29] But somebody kills his dog, right?

[00:14:31] That his wife gave him before she died.

[00:14:33] Yeah.

[00:14:33] That was...

[00:14:34] Oh, my God.

[00:14:35] What are...

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:37] I completely am drawing...

[00:14:39] We just talked about this last night.

[00:14:40] I know.

[00:14:40] I know.

[00:14:40] And now I'm drawing a complete blank, so...

[00:14:42] Okay.

[00:14:42] But everybody knows the Keanu Reeves movie where his dog died.

[00:14:46] Right.

[00:14:46] Yeah.

[00:14:47] And then there's four movies of him going after all the other gangsters because they're

[00:14:52] all coming after him because he killed the guy who killed his dog and that, like, turned

[00:14:57] on a gang war, what the fuck ever.

[00:14:58] Yeah.

[00:14:59] So, four movies because his wife died and left him a dog that a gangster killed.

[00:15:04] Okay?

[00:15:05] Yeah.

[00:15:05] And we're all like, yeah, get him, Keanu Reeves.

[00:15:09] And we're all, like, cheering it on.

[00:15:10] Now, I love those fucking movies.

[00:15:13] They're very violent.

[00:15:14] They're somewhat gory.

[00:15:17] They're not a lot of, like, sex and boobs in it and stuff.

[00:15:22] So, that's cool.

[00:15:23] John Wick.

[00:15:24] John Wick.

[00:15:24] There you go.

[00:15:25] Thank you.

[00:15:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:26] But, I mean, we are, as we watch the movie, cheering on him killing other people.

[00:15:35] That's true.

[00:15:35] That's not to say we want to see that in real life.

[00:15:38] Right.

[00:15:38] But the fact that we all think that movies like that are entertaining and good fun doesn't

[00:15:45] necessarily speak well of us as a people.

[00:15:49] You know what I'm saying?

[00:15:50] And, again, I'm saying that as a huge fan of both Keanu Reeves and John Wick movies.

[00:15:57] Okay.

[00:15:57] All right.

[00:15:58] I see your point.

[00:15:59] And, you know, I guess in society's slash our defense, right, we see the people that

[00:16:07] these folks that we cheer when they kill them that they deserved it, right?

[00:16:11] Sure.

[00:16:11] Which, okay, okay.

[00:16:13] So, in the Bible, they, I'm playing, I'm playing this up here.

[00:16:17] You're playing along.

[00:16:17] Yeah, play the game.

[00:16:18] So, in the Bible, they view that these people deserve this.

[00:16:21] Sure.

[00:16:21] Right?

[00:16:22] So, they cheer on these deaths and these conquerings and what have you.

[00:16:27] Yeah.

[00:16:27] Right?

[00:16:28] I'm not trying to say it's right.

[00:16:29] I'm trying to say, are we really the ones who want to cast those stones?

[00:16:36] Because it's not a very far drop in my mind.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:41] No, I see where you're coming.

[00:16:43] But, my only argument to that, it would be that this is a God doing this, right?

[00:16:48] A, quote unquote, perfect God.

[00:16:51] Sure.

[00:16:51] One that is supposed to know our hearts, know everybody, know everything about everybody,

[00:16:55] and know how everything works, right?

[00:16:57] And yet, this God, who is apparently perfect, takes glee, takes joy in these deaths and continues

[00:17:06] to do them even though he might be able to find, probably should be able to find a different

[00:17:10] way around it, given the fact that he's a God.

[00:17:13] Sure.

[00:17:13] That's all.

[00:17:14] No, I mean, I...

[00:17:15] That would be my only argument, and I get you made a good point.

[00:17:19] I mean, that's...

[00:17:20] That's if you are arguing with a theist, right?

[00:17:24] Sure.

[00:17:25] If you're arguing with a theist, it's like, yeah, but your God is so violent, blah, blah,

[00:17:29] but if you're just arguing with somebody else who's defending the Bible, then it's like

[00:17:35] that God is clearly based on man, and man is violent.

[00:17:38] Right.

[00:17:39] No, I mean, yeah.

[00:17:40] No, then that's exactly right, right?

[00:17:42] I mean, I think that's...

[00:17:44] And we walk the line about talking about both of those sides of things where either we're

[00:17:49] talking about God's point of view or we're talking about the fact that it was written

[00:17:52] by man.

[00:17:53] Right.

[00:17:53] And if we are talking about the fact that it was written by man, it reflects...

[00:17:57] Man's violence.

[00:17:58] Yeah.

[00:17:58] Which is...

[00:17:59] It reflects why we enjoy John Wick movies.

[00:18:02] Yeah.

[00:18:02] Even when we know better as you and I do.

[00:18:06] Right.

[00:18:06] No, that's...

[00:18:07] Yeah, you can enjoy...

[00:18:08] I mean, I don't support the death penalty.

[00:18:10] Right.

[00:18:11] Yet I do enjoy the John Wick movies.

[00:18:13] Yeah.

[00:18:13] So I mean, you know, it's...

[00:18:14] That's why I thought it was a great example because we are supposed to so sympathize with

[00:18:19] his character.

[00:18:19] I mean, he was in this lifestyle and walked away from it and clearly, you know, is a good

[00:18:24] guy on the right side and his character is presented as, you know, having loved his wife

[00:18:30] so much that, you know, he wanted to disappear inside of himself and she knew that.

[00:18:35] So that's why she left him a dog.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:37] And he did love that fucking dog so much that that's why he was heartbroken.

[00:18:42] Like, it's such a sympathetic character that it is the best example of, yeah, we want

[00:18:48] him to kill those guys.

[00:18:49] Right.

[00:18:50] And that is not nice.

[00:18:52] That is not good.

[00:18:53] Yeah.

[00:18:56] I have such mixed feelings about it because I have to, you know, put on my audience enjoying

[00:19:03] just a good story hat and take off my moral person with a decent heart who wants to treat

[00:19:10] people correctly even when they don't deserve it hat.

[00:19:14] Right.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:15] No, that was an excellent point.

[00:19:17] Thank you.

[00:19:18] Oh my gosh.

[00:19:20] You're giving me that glow.

[00:19:22] Oh my gosh.

[00:19:23] All right.

[00:19:24] So God continues, you know, this perfect loving God who is extremely violent.

[00:19:29] Yeah.

[00:19:29] In that day, declares the Lord.

[00:19:32] Will I not destroy the wise men of Edom, those of understanding in the mountains of Esau?

[00:19:38] No, you probably will.

[00:19:41] Your warriors, Taman, will be terrified and everyone in Esau's mountains will be cut down

[00:19:48] in the slaughter.

[00:19:49] Yeah.

[00:19:50] Yeah.

[00:19:52] I mean, the evil laughter just has to follow up.

[00:19:55] Yeah.

[00:19:55] Right.

[00:19:55] Right.

[00:19:55] Now, I don't know what Taman or Taman is.

[00:19:58] But I'm assuming we'll find out in our Q&A.

[00:20:00] Yeah.

[00:20:00] It's a place.

[00:20:01] Right.

[00:20:02] That's all.

[00:20:02] Okay.

[00:20:03] Because of the violence against your brother, Jacob.

[00:20:07] I'm mad at you.

[00:20:09] Oh, wait.

[00:20:10] Your brother, Jacob, because you were mean to Israel and didn't help them.

[00:20:14] Right.

[00:20:14] You will be covered with shame.

[00:20:16] You will be destroyed forever.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:19] I mean, I don't know.

[00:20:24] I don't know.

[00:20:28] I don't know.

[00:20:39] I don't know.

[00:20:46] They're worse things than death.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:48] Right.

[00:20:49] Yeah.

[00:20:49] I mean, they're going to be conquered for sure.

[00:20:51] Right.

[00:20:51] Yeah.

[00:20:51] That's what's going to happen.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:53] On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered

[00:20:59] his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem.

[00:21:01] You were like one of them.

[00:21:04] Yeah.

[00:21:04] So, like, not only did you let the bad guys take the city that is your brother, you helped.

[00:21:11] You looted them too.

[00:21:12] Yeah.

[00:21:13] You fuck face.

[00:21:14] Yeah.

[00:21:14] I mean, yeah, that's not nice.

[00:21:16] No.

[00:21:16] But, you know, but then you have to ask, but what did Israel do to Esau or Edomites?

[00:21:23] You know, come on now.

[00:21:23] Well, I think we talked about this whenever we were talking about the whole Babylonian

[00:21:27] invasion before and that's that there's this large power coming down on these people,

[00:21:31] right?

[00:21:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:32] And the groups that decided to side with them, do you really blame them?

[00:21:38] Like, I mean.

[00:21:38] I don't know enough about it.

[00:21:40] I'm going to say no, though.

[00:21:41] Right.

[00:21:42] Well, I mean, if you are, if your options are be destroyed and enslaved or join.

[00:21:47] Or join.

[00:21:47] Yeah.

[00:21:47] You know, I don't know how bad you can feel about the choice that someone makes in that

[00:21:52] in that moment.

[00:21:53] You know?

[00:21:53] Right.

[00:21:53] Like, you have an option of living or dying, essentially, or being enslaved.

[00:21:58] Right.

[00:21:58] I mean, to a more modern and lesser violent degree.

[00:22:04] It's like looking at somebody who is, who was a draft dodger and didn't want to go to

[00:22:12] war and fight in Vietnam.

[00:22:17] But, you know, didn't want to sell their soul.

[00:22:19] But we look at them now and we're like, like, okay, during that time, you're giving me that

[00:22:25] look and I fucking hate it.

[00:22:27] No, I'm just saying, I don't know.

[00:22:28] I hate it.

[00:22:28] I don't know where you're going with this.

[00:22:29] I'm trying to tell you.

[00:22:31] All right.

[00:22:32] All right.

[00:22:33] All right.

[00:22:33] So, um, the, the point I'm trying to make is somebody has choices, right?

[00:22:39] And their choice is to go one way or the other way and then be judged in history forever

[00:22:45] for the choice that they made.

[00:22:47] Right.

[00:22:47] And like during the time, everybody looked at the draft dodger as the piece of shit.

[00:22:52] But now we look back and we're a lot more sympathetic and we're like, Jesus, I don't

[00:22:57] want to, you know, go over and fight.

[00:22:59] Ooh.

[00:23:00] Yeah.

[00:23:00] Especially now that we know, like, it's very public knowledge that it was not a good fight.

[00:23:06] It was not our fight.

[00:23:08] And, you know, there was no winning that fight.

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:11] It still wouldn't be taken well in the, like if you were a politician running for office

[00:23:15] though.

[00:23:15] Yeah.

[00:23:15] So it's still not looked on great, but it does.

[00:23:18] But by the common man, though.

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:20] It does have a, yeah.

[00:23:20] Like by the common man, the common man who might be in that guy's pants and have to make

[00:23:28] that choice.

[00:23:29] Do you want to go over there?

[00:23:31] No, you don't do you.

[00:23:33] That's why you didn't fucking enlist.

[00:23:35] Right.

[00:23:35] Right.

[00:23:36] Like, I guess to that degree, everyone who didn't enlist has been a draft dodger.

[00:23:41] Right.

[00:23:42] Otherwise you would have enlisted.

[00:23:43] Right.

[00:23:44] Uh, not necessarily.

[00:23:46] I'm just saying like, we could take that to that.

[00:23:49] Sure.

[00:23:50] That would be my argument.

[00:23:51] If somebody was coming down on me, like, well, you didn't fucking serve in the military

[00:23:56] either.

[00:23:56] Why are you coming down on me?

[00:23:58] Asshole.

[00:23:58] You know, that would be my response.

[00:24:00] Sure.

[00:24:01] But the, the point I was trying to make is we're judging this, this nation way later

[00:24:08] and you're asking the right question.

[00:24:10] Like what were the choices though?

[00:24:12] Right.

[00:24:12] And that's the, the point that I was trying to make about say a more modern example that

[00:24:20] is not the same, but is a person facing choices and being stuck in, you know, what am I going

[00:24:27] to do?

[00:24:27] Sure.

[00:24:28] You know?

[00:24:29] Yeah.

[00:24:29] All right.

[00:24:29] Not the best example, but it was what I didn't.

[00:24:32] I didn't know where you're going with it.

[00:24:33] That's all.

[00:24:34] But your face was like, you're dumb.

[00:24:38] No, it was.

[00:24:40] Because you were giving me.

[00:24:40] I just didn't know where you're going with it.

[00:24:42] I know.

[00:24:42] And your face was like, you're dumb.

[00:24:45] No.

[00:24:46] Okay.

[00:24:47] Well, if you say so, you should not gloat over your brother in the day of his misfortune,

[00:24:53] nor rejoice over the people of Judah in the day of their destruction, nor boast over or

[00:24:59] both so much in the day of their trouble.

[00:25:02] So stop.

[00:25:03] Stop.

[00:25:03] Stop boasting.

[00:25:04] All that boasting is so boastful.

[00:25:06] Right.

[00:25:07] We hate that.

[00:25:08] Don't we?

[00:25:08] Yeah.

[00:25:09] You should not march through the gates of my people in the day of their disaster.

[00:25:13] Don't do that.

[00:25:14] Yeah, don't do that.

[00:25:15] Nor gloat over them in their calamity in the day of their disaster, nor seize their wealth

[00:25:20] in the day of their disaster.

[00:25:22] So stop.

[00:25:23] Basically, you know, don't do the things in the day of their disaster.

[00:25:25] You can do them on a different day though.

[00:25:27] Yeah.

[00:25:27] Totally.

[00:25:28] Tuesdays are good.

[00:25:29] Tuesdays.

[00:25:31] Every other Tuesday.

[00:25:32] Tuesday.

[00:25:32] You should not wait at the crossroads to cut down their fugitives.

[00:25:36] Oh my God.

[00:25:37] Nor hand over their survivors in the day of their trouble.

[00:25:41] Hmm.

[00:25:41] Wow.

[00:25:42] Okay.

[00:25:43] Um, anyway.

[00:25:46] Well, I mean like they, they basically helped out.

[00:25:48] This is still them helping out whoever it was, the Babylonians or whatever.

[00:25:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:52] And like if people were trying to seek refuge in their land, they turned them over because

[00:25:58] if they didn't, they probably were going to face repercussions from the Babylonians.

[00:26:02] Right.

[00:26:02] So, or whatever, whatever group it was.

[00:26:05] Yeah.

[00:26:05] Well, when it says don't wait at the crossroads to cut down their fugitives, is that telling

[00:26:12] the Edomites don't cut down the fugitives?

[00:26:18] Hold on.

[00:26:19] I'm trying to understand who he's talking to.

[00:26:21] He's talking to the Edomites.

[00:26:23] I know he's talking to the Edomites.

[00:26:24] I'm trying to understand what does cut down their fugitives mean?

[00:26:27] Who is there in that?

[00:26:29] Jacob.

[00:26:30] The Israelites.

[00:26:31] So, the Israelites have fugitives?

[00:26:34] I don't understand.

[00:26:35] Cut down their-

[00:26:36] People running from the fugitives in this light might just be people running from the Babylonians

[00:26:42] who were trying to capture them.

[00:26:44] Okay.

[00:26:45] Because they were killing and capturing the, you know, Israelites at the time.

[00:26:50] Right.

[00:26:50] And if they ran away from being captured and taken into exile, these might have been considered

[00:26:56] fugitives because they didn't allow themselves to be taken into exile.

[00:26:59] Okay.

[00:26:59] I see.

[00:27:00] I was confused because fugitive sounds like they belong to somebody.

[00:27:04] And so, I didn't understand, like, their fugitives.

[00:27:07] I don't know.

[00:27:08] I just wasn't following it.

[00:27:09] A fugitive is just somebody who's running from the-

[00:27:12] I know what a fugitive is.

[00:27:13] I don't know what their fugitives means.

[00:27:16] Israel-

[00:27:17] Israel's fugitives.

[00:27:18] Okay.

[00:27:19] The fugitives of Israel.

[00:27:21] See, that would have been better phrasing to me.

[00:27:23] The fugitives of Israel.

[00:27:24] Not Israel's fugitives.

[00:27:26] Because the fugitives don't belong to Israel.

[00:27:30] They just are fugitives.

[00:27:32] Got it.

[00:27:33] Of Israel.

[00:27:34] Sure.

[00:27:34] I don't know.

[00:27:35] I don't like the phrasing.

[00:27:36] Okay.

[00:27:37] You know how I be.

[00:27:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:38] The day of the Lord is near for all nations.

[00:27:41] That's a bad day from what I understand.

[00:27:42] I'm just putting that out there.

[00:27:44] From previous books that we read.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:45] I'm just putting it out there.

[00:27:46] As you have done, it will be done to you.

[00:27:48] Bitch.

[00:27:49] Okay.

[00:27:50] Your deeds will return upon your own fucking head.

[00:27:54] Okay.

[00:27:55] I'm going to get you.

[00:27:56] Just as you drink on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually, they will

[00:28:02] drink and drink and be as if they had never been?

[00:28:06] Question mark?

[00:28:06] What?

[00:28:07] I don't know.

[00:28:07] I'm not following that.

[00:28:08] I do want to say real quick here, though, that God allowed Israel to be conquered.

[00:28:14] Okay.

[00:28:15] Right?

[00:28:15] And all Edom did was allow Israel to be conquered.

[00:28:18] Right.

[00:28:18] You know, I-

[00:28:19] That's funny.

[00:28:19] Kind of equal there if you ask me.

[00:28:21] We were just following your example, God!

[00:28:23] I'm just saying.

[00:28:24] What?

[00:28:24] You know?

[00:28:25] We can't win!

[00:28:26] Jesus Christ!

[00:28:28] No, that's later.

[00:28:29] I know.

[00:28:30] Right?

[00:28:30] I wasn't even there!

[00:28:32] Right.

[00:28:33] Ghostbusters never fails me.

[00:28:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:34] All right.

[00:28:35] So anyway, everybody's drinking something.

[00:28:37] Yeah.

[00:28:37] I don't really know, but it's going to be like they would never been.

[00:28:40] Sure.

[00:28:41] Right.

[00:28:41] But on Mount Zion will be deliverance.

[00:28:45] It will be holy and Jacob will possess his inheritance.

[00:28:49] Jacob will be a fire and Joseph a flame.

[00:28:53] Esau will be stubble and they will set him on fire and destroy him.

[00:28:58] Boom!

[00:28:59] There will be no survivors from Esau.

[00:29:02] Esau is on fire.

[00:29:04] Right.

[00:29:07] I don't think that's a good use of that song.

[00:29:10] No.

[00:29:10] Sorry.

[00:29:11] But actually it was pretty good.

[00:29:12] Yeah.

[00:29:13] All right.

[00:29:14] Yeah, no survivors.

[00:29:15] Esau's dead.

[00:29:16] The Lord has spoken.

[00:29:18] People from the Negev will occupy the mountains of Esau and people from the foothills will possess

[00:29:25] the land of the Philistines.

[00:29:27] They will occupy the fields of Ephraim and Samaria and Benjamin will possess Gilead.

[00:29:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:35] Yeah.

[00:29:35] The Israelites, they're going to possess it all.

[00:29:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:38] Everybody.

[00:29:39] Y'all are fucked and...

[00:29:40] God's people win.

[00:29:41] The end.

[00:29:42] Yeah, God's people win.

[00:29:42] Not today, but you know, like later.

[00:29:44] Yeah.

[00:29:44] Like every chapter is either God's people win or God's going to kill his people.

[00:29:49] Right.

[00:29:49] Or God's people win, but they got too prideful, so God's going to kill his people.

[00:29:54] But I still...

[00:29:56] I couldn't...

[00:29:57] Anytime we've ever talked about Edom or any of these other groups that were like allowing

[00:30:00] for the Israelites to fall, I'm like, but God literally let them fall.

[00:30:04] Right.

[00:30:05] And I...

[00:30:06] What?

[00:30:07] Yeah.

[00:30:08] That doesn't make any sense.

[00:30:09] Please don't let me be chosen.

[00:30:11] Right?

[00:30:12] Yeah.

[00:30:12] There's just no right answer ever.

[00:30:13] Mm-mm.

[00:30:14] Mm-mm.

[00:30:14] Mm-mm.

[00:30:15] Mm-mm.

[00:30:15] Mm-mm.

[00:30:15] This company of Israelite exiles who are in Canaan will possess the land as far as Zarephath.

[00:30:21] Zare...

[00:30:22] Zare...

[00:30:23] Zarephath.

[00:30:24] Sure.

[00:30:24] The exiles from Jerusalem who are in Zephirad will possess the towns of the Negev.

[00:30:31] I don't know what Zarephath is, but Zephirad is Spain.

[00:30:34] Ah.

[00:30:35] Okay.

[00:30:35] Just so that, you know...

[00:30:37] Got it.

[00:30:38] I looked that one up.

[00:30:39] Sure.

[00:30:39] Or what I mean to say is that one was in the notes.

[00:30:41] Got it.

[00:30:42] But I don't know what a Zarephath is.

[00:30:44] Okay.

[00:30:45] So I'll have to look that up.

[00:30:46] Sure.

[00:30:47] Okay, last one and then we're done with the book.

[00:30:50] Ready?

[00:30:50] Yeah, I'm ready.

[00:30:51] Okay.

[00:30:52] Deliverers will go up on Mount Zion to governor the mountains of Esau and the kingdom will be

[00:30:57] the Lord's thee and...

[00:30:59] Bye, Obadiah.

[00:31:00] Yeah.

[00:31:01] That was it.

[00:31:02] Yep.

[00:31:02] Apparently Esau's screwed.

[00:31:04] Yep.

[00:31:04] That's pretty much what that one says.

[00:31:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:06] Fuck Esau.

[00:31:07] Yeah.

[00:31:07] Right.

[00:31:07] Fuck those fuckers in Esau.

[00:31:11] Yeah.

[00:31:13] Of Edomite sandwich?

[00:31:14] Yeah.

[00:31:15] Okay.

[00:31:16] Well...

[00:31:17] What?

[00:31:18] Edomite sandwich.

[00:31:19] I love it.

[00:31:20] It just made me think of Vegemite.

[00:31:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:23] I don't...

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:24] I don't know what else to say really though.

[00:31:25] I mean...

[00:31:26] Is there anything...

[00:31:26] It sounds like...

[00:31:27] I mean this book sounds like every other, you know, book where we were talking about

[00:31:31] the Babylonian exile.

[00:31:32] Except...

[00:31:33] More or less.

[00:31:33] Except we're talking about Edom now.

[00:31:34] And it's just one chapter.

[00:31:36] And it's just one chapter.

[00:31:37] Right?

[00:31:37] Right.

[00:31:37] So...

[00:31:38] Yeah.

[00:31:38] I don't know that there was anything real exceptional about it.

[00:31:41] Um...

[00:31:41] There will be a little bit that I cover in the Q&A and...

[00:31:45] And wrap up.

[00:31:46] It's just the same.

[00:31:47] These books at the end of the Bible, at the end of the Old Testament are kind of like...

[00:31:50] Hmm...

[00:31:50] They're anticlimactic and like add-ons.

[00:31:54] Right.

[00:31:54] And that's fine.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:56] I mean, you know, it is what it is.

[00:31:57] I guess.

[00:31:58] We're getting ready to get into the New Testament soon-ish.

[00:32:01] Right.

[00:32:01] So it's...

[00:32:01] We're going to get excited.

[00:32:03] And New Testament ends in Revelation.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:06] Like, I mean, it's got a bang.

[00:32:07] I know.

[00:32:08] But I think before we start the New Testament, hadn't we talked about wanting to do like

[00:32:13] the pseudepig...

[00:32:16] Yes.

[00:32:16] The stuff that doesn't go in the Bible that was left out?

[00:32:19] Yes.

[00:32:20] Yes.

[00:32:20] The apocryphal texts.

[00:32:22] Yeah, that stuff.

[00:32:23] Things like that.

[00:32:23] Yeah.

[00:32:24] Right.

[00:32:25] Like the Dead Sea Scroll kind of things.

[00:32:27] And that stuff.

[00:32:28] The Dead Sea Scrolls doesn't necessarily...

[00:32:29] Yeah.

[00:32:30] I said some of it.

[00:32:31] Not all of it.

[00:32:33] Okay.

[00:32:33] It's just the Dead Sea Scrolls were a bunch of...

[00:32:36] Like, it's the Bible essentially.

[00:32:38] Yeah, I know.

[00:32:38] It had some other...

[00:32:38] But not all of the things that were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls were included.

[00:32:43] Right.

[00:32:44] Right.

[00:32:44] So that's the ones...

[00:32:46] Those ones.

[00:32:46] That's the ones we want to cover.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] All right.

[00:32:50] So that was Obadiah.

[00:32:52] Sure as fuck was.

[00:32:53] Which was the 31st book of the Bible.

[00:32:56] I'm glad you're keeping count.

[00:32:57] And we're now done with that one.

[00:32:58] Well, I mean...

[00:32:59] We're moving on.

[00:33:00] We have our special episodes.

[00:33:02] Like, we have the wrap up and the contradictions, which I don't know how many there's going to

[00:33:06] be.

[00:33:06] It might be really...

[00:33:07] We might have to...

[00:33:08] Yeah.

[00:33:08] This is going to be really short probably.

[00:33:10] Yeah.

[00:33:10] We might have like a 30 second little episode where I'm like, well...

[00:33:16] I'm sure we'll find some contradictions.

[00:33:18] We'll find something.

[00:33:19] Yeah.

[00:33:19] All right.

[00:33:19] We'll see you then, guys.

[00:33:21] Bye.

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[00:34:04] Wife!

[00:34:04] Do you know what we're doing today?

[00:34:07] Well, amazingly, we just finished an entire book of the Bible in one day.

[00:34:12] In one fucking day.

[00:34:13] One episode!

[00:34:14] Yeah.

[00:34:14] Boom!

[00:34:14] There go Obadiah.

[00:34:16] There go Obadiah.

[00:34:17] Yeah, so that must mean that today we're doing...

[00:34:20] A Q&A and a wrap up.

[00:34:23] Not on Saturday, because what the fuck?

[00:34:27] That was really good.

[00:34:28] I know, right?

[00:34:29] I'm impressed.

[00:34:30] That was right off the top of the old dome.

[00:34:32] Yeah.

[00:34:32] The potato dome.

[00:34:33] So do you have some good questions and wrap up stuff for us today?

[00:34:36] I do.

[00:34:37] I have some interesting extraneous data that is probably pointless, but that I found interesting

[00:34:44] and you probably will be like, when do you do that?

[00:34:48] And I think that other people will be like, husband, it is interesting.

[00:34:53] Stop!

[00:34:54] Okay.

[00:34:55] So that's how you think this is going to go?

[00:34:56] Yeah.

[00:34:57] Okay.

[00:34:57] Well, let's go find out.

[00:34:59] Okay.

[00:34:59] All right.

[00:35:06] All right.

[00:35:06] Let's talk about this book of Obadiah.

[00:35:08] Okay.

[00:35:09] So normally I would go back over the intro stuff, but that was...

[00:35:13] That was yesterday.

[00:35:14] Yesterday.

[00:35:15] Right.

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:15] So I'm just going to do a quick recap in that it's a guy named Obadiah who may or may

[00:35:23] not have actually existed.

[00:35:24] There were like seven other Obadiahs in the Bible mentioned.

[00:35:29] Okay.

[00:35:30] And it may have been one of them or it may have been none of them.

[00:35:33] I see.

[00:35:34] Okay.

[00:35:34] Okay.

[00:35:35] And this whole book is exactly one chapter, which takes up the front of one page.

[00:35:42] Right.

[00:35:43] And is only like 21 verses.

[00:35:46] Yeah.

[00:35:46] So...

[00:35:46] Really fucking short.

[00:35:48] Pretty fucking short.

[00:35:49] Right.

[00:35:49] And it is about judgment against Israel's brother Edom.

[00:35:54] Got it.

[00:35:54] Or Esau.

[00:35:55] Right.

[00:35:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:56] Whom the Edomites descend from.

[00:36:00] Right.

[00:36:00] Okay.

[00:36:01] Yep.

[00:36:01] So the book of Obadiah is a prophecy concerning the fall and the subsequent divine judgment

[00:36:07] of Edom, a mountain dwelling nation whose founding father was Esau.

[00:36:12] Got it.

[00:36:13] Okay.

[00:36:13] Yep.

[00:36:14] So we start with Edom's sin and God's judgment against them.

[00:36:19] Okay.

[00:36:19] And before we even hop into the first verse though, let me just let you know the Hebrew

[00:36:25] name Obadiah means worshiper of Yahweh or Yahweh.

[00:36:30] Yahweh.

[00:36:31] Sorry.

[00:36:33] Worshipper of Yahweh or servant of Yahweh.

[00:36:37] Oh, that's convenient.

[00:36:38] Which is like actually kind of synonymous worship and servant.

[00:36:43] Right.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] And fear trodden bendy boy.

[00:36:48] The really apt names that these prophets have make me think that they weren't actual

[00:36:55] people.

[00:36:57] Well, I'm going to push back on that because there's a lot of people alive today who named

[00:37:03] their kids like some really weird things.

[00:37:05] Sure.

[00:37:06] Like, did you hear the one about the people who they named their daughter Khaleesi, but

[00:37:12] then they couldn't get any ID for her because they were like, that's not a real name.

[00:37:16] And they were like, the hell you say.

[00:37:18] Hmm.

[00:37:19] Yeah.

[00:37:19] I didn't hear about that.

[00:37:20] No.

[00:37:21] Um, I want to say it was like somewhere in England or Ireland or Scotland or something like

[00:37:25] that.

[00:37:25] And they were like, no, it's a name because we said so.

[00:37:28] Right.

[00:37:29] Right.

[00:37:29] And, you know, Elon Musk over there in America named his kids something like XZ241 or whatever

[00:37:35] the fuck.

[00:37:36] Right.

[00:37:37] You know, get over it.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:39] So, I mean, people named their kids after other people.

[00:37:44] Well, and I guess I'll push back on my own idea because I think a lot of the prophets

[00:37:48] were generally, they was kind of like a birthright to be a prophet somewhat.

[00:37:52] Like it stemmed from the, your lot in life at some level.

[00:37:56] Yeah.

[00:37:56] Right.

[00:37:57] Yeah.

[00:37:57] So maybe the parents would name their kids with the knowledge that they're probably going

[00:38:02] to end up being a prophet.

[00:38:04] Right.

[00:38:04] Like you're going to be something in the church because that's the way it goes.

[00:38:08] Right.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:09] Because our family is of the church.

[00:38:10] Right.

[00:38:11] So it's kind of like naming your kid winner.

[00:38:14] Yeah.

[00:38:14] You are going to be that.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:16] So either they were completely indoctrinated insofar as like all the way to the name,

[00:38:21] their name that their parents gave them or they were kind of made up.

[00:38:26] Yeah.

[00:38:26] One of the two.

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:28] That's how I see it anyway.

[00:38:29] Sure.

[00:38:30] Well, let's talk about the Edomites a little bit.

[00:38:32] They were the people descended from Esau, the son of Isaac and Rebecca and the brother

[00:38:37] of Jacob.

[00:38:38] Okay.

[00:38:39] That story was all talked about in Genesis chapter 25.

[00:38:42] Right.

[00:38:42] You know, the twin that was supposed to have the birthright.

[00:38:46] But Jacob, the son of a bitch ends up being like the sympathetic good guy.

[00:38:51] Like we're supposed to be like, yeah, Jacob.

[00:38:53] And I'm like, but you were a rat fuck from the day one.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:57] He was kind of an asshole.

[00:38:58] Like it struck me again as I was like studying this, like, wait, you actually weren't the

[00:39:04] good guy like ever, but you're the main character that we're supposed to like, oh, yes, we are

[00:39:09] talking about Jacob's story.

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:12] Like poor Esau still.

[00:39:14] Yeah.

[00:39:14] But Esau got fucked then.

[00:39:15] He's getting fucked now.

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:17] So, um, you know, justice for Esau.

[00:39:20] That's what I'm going to say.

[00:39:21] So Esau was nicknamed Edom, which means red.

[00:39:24] And we talked about that at the time because dude had red hair.

[00:39:28] Okay.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] And we talked about that way back in Genesis.

[00:39:32] That was something that, that I brought to the table.

[00:39:34] I vaguely remember that.

[00:39:34] I didn't remember it till I read it and I was like, oh yeah.

[00:39:37] Right.

[00:39:38] So Esau eventually settled in the area of Mount Seir and absorbed a people known as the Horites.

[00:39:45] And that was discussed in Genesis chapter 36.

[00:39:48] Okay.

[00:39:49] When Israel came out of Egypt and wanted to pass through the land of the Edomites to enter into

[00:39:54] the promised land.

[00:39:56] Right.

[00:39:56] The Edomites wouldn't let them.

[00:39:58] Yeah.

[00:39:58] And probably because Esau was like, no, fuck you, Jacob.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:03] You have my birthright.

[00:40:05] Like go around.

[00:40:06] Right.

[00:40:07] You know, you, you don't get to have everything.

[00:40:09] So that was described in numbers chapter 20.

[00:40:12] Sure.

[00:40:13] Okay.

[00:40:13] The Edomites opposed Saul and were conquered under David and Solomon.

[00:40:18] And that was covered in first Samuel, second Samuel and first Kings.

[00:40:22] Okay.

[00:40:22] Okay.

[00:40:23] In the days of King Jehoshaphat of Judah, Edom joined with Moab and Ammon to attack Judah.

[00:40:32] But the Lord fought for Judah and defeated them.

[00:40:35] Hmm.

[00:40:35] And that was described in second Chronicles.

[00:40:38] Okay.

[00:40:38] Okay.

[00:40:38] Then the Edomites successfully rebelled against King Jehoram of Judah.

[00:40:44] And that was in second Kings.

[00:40:46] Oh, but King Amaziah of Judah brought them back under subjugation.

[00:40:51] Oh, man.

[00:40:52] And that was again in second Kings.

[00:40:54] Right.

[00:40:55] The Edomites again tagged Judah in the days of King Ahaz in second Chronicles.

[00:41:00] And the Edomites fought side by side with the Jews in the rebellion against Rome in AD 66 to 70.

[00:41:07] Hmm.

[00:41:08] And were crushed by Rome, never to be heard of as a people again, which rendered the predictions of Obadiah chapters one or chapter one versus 10 and 18.

[00:41:20] True.

[00:41:21] And I'll read those verses.

[00:41:22] Sure.

[00:41:23] But the timing is and the manner in which it happened is kind of questionable.

[00:41:29] I don't want to hear your shit.

[00:41:30] Because they were helping.

[00:41:31] They were fighting with the Israelites.

[00:41:33] Yes, but listen.

[00:41:34] Okay.

[00:41:34] I'm listening.

[00:41:35] So verse 10 of Obadiah reads,

[00:41:38] Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame and you will be destroyed forever.

[00:41:44] You know, someday.

[00:41:45] Yeah, sure.

[00:41:46] And that someday came true when it happened.

[00:41:49] When they were helping the Israelites.

[00:41:51] Yeah.

[00:41:51] Okay.

[00:41:52] In the 80s.

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:53] That makes no fucking sense.

[00:41:55] You just stop now.

[00:41:56] Okay.

[00:41:57] The Bible's always right, good and true.

[00:41:58] No, no, no, no.

[00:41:59] Okay.

[00:42:00] And verse 18 reads, Jacob will be a fire and Joseph a flame.

[00:42:04] Esau will be a stubble and they will set him on fire and destroy them.

[00:42:08] There will be no survivors from Esau.

[00:42:10] The Lord has spoken.

[00:42:11] I see.

[00:42:12] You know, trash.

[00:42:13] Uh huh.

[00:42:14] And then guess what?

[00:42:15] Several hundred years later, it happened.

[00:42:17] Wow.

[00:42:18] That was more than several hundred.

[00:42:20] It was like going on over 500.

[00:42:24] What?

[00:42:25] Yeah.

[00:42:25] Okay.

[00:42:26] No, you're right.

[00:42:26] You're right.

[00:42:27] Sorry.

[00:42:27] I had to math it.

[00:42:28] Yeah.

[00:42:30] All right.

[00:42:30] So verse three, we're going back to the beginning of the book now.

[00:42:34] Okay.

[00:42:34] Okay.

[00:42:35] Verse three and four read the pride of your heart has deceived you.

[00:42:39] You who live in the clefts of the rocks and make your home on the heights.

[00:42:43] You who say to yourself, who can bring me down to the ground?

[00:42:47] Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars.

[00:42:51] From there, I will bring you down, declares the Lord.

[00:42:54] I'm assuming this is because they lived around where Mount Sir is.

[00:42:57] It was very mountainous land.

[00:42:58] Yeah.

[00:42:59] We're going to talk about that because that city is fucking cool.

[00:43:03] Is it?

[00:43:03] Yeah.

[00:43:04] And that's what I'm bringing to the table as my extraneous data.

[00:43:07] Okay.

[00:43:08] So the Edomites didn't have all that much to be proud of, according to, you know, the

[00:43:12] people who didn't like them.

[00:43:14] Yeah.

[00:43:14] Yeah.

[00:43:15] The apologist who wrote the note that I'm reading from.

[00:43:18] That's not very trustworthy.

[00:43:19] It might be.

[00:43:19] Okay.

[00:43:20] No.

[00:43:21] I, again, sourced this from more than one place.

[00:43:24] But there was an apologist that was like, they didn't have that much to be proud of.

[00:43:27] They were a small, relatively poor and insignificant nation.

[00:43:32] So insignificant that they were named in the Bible.

[00:43:35] And they were the brother of Jacob and Israel.

[00:43:40] Yeah.

[00:43:40] Very insignificant.

[00:43:41] And they were powerful enough at one point that they stopped them from, stopped the Israelites

[00:43:45] from going through their land.

[00:43:46] Very insignificant.

[00:43:47] Right.

[00:43:47] Yeah.

[00:43:49] Yet, what they could be proud of, they were.

[00:43:52] And they had some shit to be proud of.

[00:43:55] Okay.

[00:43:55] They were not actually insignificant.

[00:43:57] Well, I mean, as you were saying that, I guess my thoughts went immediately to like

[00:44:01] the Native Americans, right?

[00:44:03] And like how they are, could be considered insignificant in today's society.

[00:44:09] Right.

[00:44:09] As far as the quantity of and how they've been treated and where they, they've been subjugated

[00:44:14] to live and all this.

[00:44:15] Right.

[00:44:15] Sure.

[00:44:16] But they have a lot of pride.

[00:44:17] Yeah.

[00:44:17] They have a lot of, you know.

[00:44:18] And they have a lot to be proud of.

[00:44:20] They have a lot to be proud of.

[00:44:21] Right.

[00:44:21] So, I mean.

[00:44:22] It's all in the eye of the beholder.

[00:44:25] Right.

[00:44:25] Right.

[00:44:25] Who's telling the story.

[00:44:27] Exactly.

[00:44:27] And that's, that's, that's, I don't, I don't like the way this is that, that that apologist

[00:44:31] decided to, you know, phrase that.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] Totally agree.

[00:44:36] So they lived in an area of great natural fortifications and strength.

[00:44:40] So they boasted about the clefts of the rocks around them.

[00:44:44] Sure.

[00:44:44] Okay.

[00:44:45] Enclosed by towering rocks and watered by a perennial stream, their city controlled the

[00:44:51] main commercial routes, which passed through it.

[00:44:54] Oh.

[00:44:55] So they were not insignificant.

[00:44:56] Right.

[00:44:57] Sounds like they actually had a lot of power maybe.

[00:44:59] Yeah.

[00:44:59] Yeah.

[00:45:00] The routes, the commercial routes that passed through it led to Gaza in the west, to Damascus

[00:45:06] in the north, to important cities on the Red Sea and across the desert to what we now

[00:45:11] call the Persian Gulf.

[00:45:12] So they were a major hub.

[00:45:14] Yeah.

[00:45:14] Fuck off.

[00:45:16] Their city not only served as a trading hub, but also possessed the advantages of a fortress,

[00:45:22] you know, because of where they were located with the rocks and the caves.

[00:45:24] Right.

[00:45:25] Sure.

[00:45:25] So the Edomites also, those bitches, they boasted about their secure defenses.

[00:45:30] Hmm.

[00:45:31] The ancient city of Petra.

[00:45:33] This is so cool.

[00:45:34] I, I'm just like wowed out over this.

[00:45:36] Okay.

[00:45:37] The ancient city of Petra, once the capital city of Edom known as Selah or Selah, I'm not

[00:45:44] sure.

[00:45:44] Okay.

[00:45:45] Had amazing defenses.

[00:45:47] It is a city carved into the rock accessible by a narrow canyon almost a mile long.

[00:45:53] At the end of the canyon, there is a spectacular city carved in stone and seemingly incapable

[00:46:00] of being conquered by any army.

[00:46:02] Wow.

[00:46:03] Petra is the Greek word for rock and it has the same root as, you know, petrified.

[00:46:10] Right.

[00:46:10] Petrified wood, petrified forest.

[00:46:12] Sure.

[00:46:13] Petrified meaning scared stuff.

[00:46:15] Right.

[00:46:15] You know, that kind of thing.

[00:46:16] Sure.

[00:46:16] So Petra, that city of rock.

[00:46:19] Yeah.

[00:46:19] Petra is a historic and archeological city in Southern Jordan, famous for its rock cut

[00:46:25] architecture and water conduit systems.

[00:46:28] Petra is also called the Rose City because of the color of the sandstone from which it

[00:46:34] is carved.

[00:46:34] Huh.

[00:46:35] The city is one of the new seven wonders of the world.

[00:46:39] Wow.

[00:46:40] And a UNESCO world heritage site.

[00:46:43] Wow.

[00:46:44] Right.

[00:46:44] Like I got goosebumps reading that out loud.

[00:46:46] Yeah.

[00:46:46] Sounds like that apologists like really undersold.

[00:46:49] Yeah.

[00:46:50] The importance and longevity of this place.

[00:46:54] Yeah.

[00:46:55] Right.

[00:46:55] Right.

[00:46:55] So the Edomite site excavated at the top of the Om El Bayara mountain at Petra was established

[00:47:02] no earlier than the seventh century BCE.

[00:47:05] Hmm.

[00:47:07] The area around Petra has been inhabited from as early as 7000 BCE and was settled by a nomadic

[00:47:15] Arab people in the fourth century BCE.

[00:47:18] Okay.

[00:47:18] Petra is listed in various Egyptian campaign accounts dating from the Bronze Age and the

[00:47:24] Bronze Age lasted about 2000 years from 3300 BCE to 1200 BCE.

[00:47:30] Just to put that in context.

[00:47:31] The Iron Age lasted between 1200 and 600 BCE.

[00:47:36] And in that time period, the Petra area was occupied by the Edomites.

[00:47:41] Hmm.

[00:47:42] Okay.

[00:47:42] Okay.

[00:47:43] The configuration of mountains in Petra allowed for a reservoir of water for the Edomites.

[00:47:49] Like I said, they had that perpetual stream just coming in.

[00:47:52] Yeah.

[00:47:52] So they had fresh water right in their little city just flowing all the time.

[00:47:57] Very cool.

[00:47:57] This made Petra a stopping ground for merchants, making it an outstanding area for trade.

[00:48:04] Hmm.

[00:48:05] Items of trade included wines, olive oil, and wood.

[00:48:09] I'm so sorry, but why were they insignificant?

[00:48:12] Fuck off.

[00:48:13] Sounds like they had a lot of, uh...

[00:48:15] A lot to be proud of.

[00:48:16] Yeah.

[00:48:16] Yeah.

[00:48:17] Initially, the Edomites were accompanied by nomads who eventually left, but the Edomites stayed

[00:48:23] and made their mark on Petra.

[00:48:25] Petra would later become the capital city of the Nabataean kingdom in the 2nd century BCE.

[00:48:32] Okay.

[00:48:32] The Nabataeans invested in Petra's proximity to the incense trade routes by establishing it as a major regional trading hub, which gained them considerable revenue.

[00:48:44] Hmm.

[00:48:45] Unlike their enemies, the Nabataeans were accustomed to living in the barren deserts and thus were able to defend their kingdom.

[00:48:52] They were particularly skillful in agriculture, stone carving, and rainwater harvesting.

[00:48:59] Petra flourished in the 1st century AD, but fell to the Romans, as we've already said, in 106 AD, but annexed and renamed it as Arabia Petraea.

[00:49:10] Okay.

[00:49:11] You know, as the Romans do.

[00:49:13] Right.

[00:49:14] Petra's importance declined as sea trade routes emerged and, after an earthquake in 363 AD, destroyed many of the structures.

[00:49:23] That's sad.

[00:49:24] Right?

[00:49:25] In the Byzantine era, several Christian churches were built, but the city continued to decline, and by the early Islamic era, it was abandoned except for a handful of nomads.

[00:49:36] I think it's Byzantine.

[00:49:37] Is it?

[00:49:38] I believe so.

[00:49:39] Okay.

[00:49:40] But I just, I don't, I don't want to say that like with 100% authority, but I think it's Byzantine.

[00:49:44] Byzantine.

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:45] I always say Byzantine.

[00:49:46] I believe you.

[00:49:48] And I apologize.

[00:49:49] I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

[00:49:51] Well, you know how I'm better in my head than out loud.

[00:49:55] The city remained unknown to the Western world until 1812.

[00:50:02] Oh, wow.

[00:50:03] Wow.

[00:50:03] When Swiss traveler Johann Ludwig Burkhart rediscovered it.

[00:50:08] Huh.

[00:50:09] The fuck, right?

[00:50:10] Yeah.

[00:50:11] Local folklore says this city was created by the wand of Moses when he struck the rock to bring forth water for the Israelites.

[00:50:21] Oh, wow.

[00:50:21] Wow.

[00:50:22] And is where Moses's brother Haran or Aaron is buried at Mount Hor, known today as Jabal Haran or Mount Aaron.

[00:50:32] Wow.

[00:50:32] Right?

[00:50:33] Yeah.

[00:50:33] The Wadi Musa or Wadi of Moses.

[00:50:37] Yeah.

[00:50:37] Is the Arab name for the narrow valley at the head of which Petra is sited.

[00:50:43] A mountaintop shrine of Moses's sister Miriam was still shown to pilgrims at the time of Jerome in the fourth century, but its location has not been identified since.

[00:50:55] But still, that's really interesting.

[00:50:57] Right?

[00:50:57] Yeah.

[00:50:58] Yeah.

[00:50:58] I was like, oh my God, everything about this city is cool.

[00:51:01] Yeah.

[00:51:02] New evidence indicates that broader Edomite and thus Nabataean theology had strong links to Earth-Sun relationships, often manastated in the orientation of prominent Petra structures to equinox and solstice sunrises and sunsets.

[00:51:20] Okay.

[00:51:20] Kind of like how we discovered, oh shit, Stonehenge.

[00:51:25] Right.

[00:51:25] How we discovered, oh, it's not just a random circle of stones, they're actually a fucking calendar.

[00:51:30] My bad.

[00:51:31] You said manastated.

[00:51:31] I don't know that word.

[00:51:33] Is that a...

[00:51:34] Manifested.

[00:51:35] Manifested.

[00:51:36] Okay.

[00:51:37] Manifested.

[00:51:37] You said manastated.

[00:51:39] Well, you know, that's how I be.

[00:51:42] I gotta love.

[00:51:43] Sorry, I just, I had to, I wasn't sure what I thought maybe that was the wrong word.

[00:51:48] Sorry.

[00:51:49] Sorry.

[00:51:49] I'm doing a lot of fuck ups.

[00:51:51] It's okay.

[00:51:51] I think my brain is regressing, honestly.

[00:51:54] Maybe I'm like RFK and I got a brain wound.

[00:51:57] There you go.

[00:51:57] Yeah.

[00:51:58] Yeah.

[00:51:58] So anyway, these folks were, they were worshiping sun and moon gods and goddesses.

[00:52:06] Okay.

[00:52:06] Much like the later Greeks and Romans.

[00:52:09] Right.

[00:52:09] So location, fortification, those are things that the Edomites boasted about.

[00:52:14] Well, they also boasted about their wisdom.

[00:52:17] The men of Edom, especially of the city Taman, were noted for their wisdom.

[00:52:23] The phrase, quote, men of the east, which has been something we've heard in the Old Testament.

[00:52:30] Yeah.

[00:52:30] Often refers to men from Edom and passages like 1 Kings chapter 4 verse 30 declare the great wisdom of the men of the east.

[00:52:40] And I'm going to read that verse.

[00:52:42] Solomon's wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the people of the east and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt.

[00:52:49] So that's who they were talking about, these Edomites.

[00:52:52] Okay.

[00:52:52] Like I had no idea.

[00:52:54] Yeah.

[00:52:54] And then also in Jeremiah chapter 49 verse 7, it says,

[00:52:59] Concerning Edom, this is what the Lord Almighty says.

[00:53:02] Is there no longer wisdom in Taman?

[00:53:05] Has counsel perished from the prudent?

[00:53:08] Has their wisdom decayed?

[00:53:10] So, I mean, they were very much known for their wisdom.

[00:53:12] And I guess that's why they boasted about it.

[00:53:15] Right. Right.

[00:53:16] You know, insignificant, huh?

[00:53:19] So location, fortification, and wisdom were all sources of great pride for the Edomites.

[00:53:24] Okay.

[00:53:25] And then they got in trouble for being too awesome.

[00:53:27] Yeah.

[00:53:28] And not letting son of a bitch Jacob people travel through their land.

[00:53:34] Right.

[00:53:35] Right.

[00:53:35] That's what this really was about, I think.

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:37] Oh, yeah.

[00:53:38] No, I mean, they were seen biblically as an enemy of, you know, the Israelites and Jacob.

[00:53:43] But if we look back to the very fucking beginnings, I'm kind of on Edom's side.

[00:53:49] It, I, look, I think.

[00:53:51] I would like to hear their story.

[00:53:52] How about that?

[00:53:53] Yeah.

[00:53:53] No, I think that's the part that's, you know, when you read strictly from the biblical perspective

[00:53:58] is that you're missing out on the stories of these other groups of people that existed

[00:54:03] and had their own stories.

[00:54:05] Right.

[00:54:05] Right.

[00:54:05] That's the part that you miss out on.

[00:54:07] Well, and I just, I hate that.

[00:54:09] I hate that.

[00:54:10] Like, they're like, yeah.

[00:54:12] And Jacob was a son of a bitch and stole the birthright.

[00:54:15] And isn't that great?

[00:54:17] And Jews descend from him to this day.

[00:54:19] And there are great people.

[00:54:20] And I'm like, hold on, hold on.

[00:54:22] Rewind just a sec.

[00:54:23] Right.

[00:54:24] Why is he a hero again now?

[00:54:26] Why is he great?

[00:54:27] Well, and that's something that I, that I personally have thought about is that because

[00:54:31] you know how much I love history.

[00:54:32] I would love to do like, if we, if we were doing this full time, I would love like, as

[00:54:37] far as we had a full time to dedicate to the podcast as opposed to doing it in our spare

[00:54:42] time.

[00:54:42] Yeah.

[00:54:43] I would love to do a series on the history of the Bible, but by the history of the Bible,

[00:54:50] I mean the history surrounding the Bible.

[00:54:53] Like what was happening actually in the world that we're not talking about in the Bible?

[00:54:58] Yeah.

[00:54:59] When something comes up, I'd rather talk about like, take the, the, what I would love to

[00:55:04] do is take the timeline of the Bible, right?

[00:55:06] And then take the things that, that the people that interact with the Israelites and, and talk

[00:55:14] about those events.

[00:55:16] Talk about those people.

[00:55:17] Yeah.

[00:55:17] Talk about those cultures.

[00:55:18] From a historical reference point instead of the biblical reference point.

[00:55:23] Right.

[00:55:23] Yeah.

[00:55:23] We can use the Bible as a timeline reference.

[00:55:25] Yeah.

[00:55:26] But talk about the other side of it.

[00:55:28] Right.

[00:55:28] Talk about the other cultures.

[00:55:29] Right.

[00:55:30] Real quick though, speaking of which you said something about the Romans being sun and moon

[00:55:37] worshipers, you know, they were only like after they conquered the Edomites, which you

[00:55:41] said was 66 CE, I believe.

[00:55:43] I already, I already don't remember.

[00:55:45] Or no, it was like one Oh something.

[00:55:46] It was, it was 100 something.

[00:55:48] I'm sorry.

[00:55:48] You know, I don't hold numbers.

[00:55:50] No, that's right.

[00:55:50] But it was 100 something.

[00:55:51] So, but the, the Romans actually became Christian more or less shortly after the 300 CE timeframe.

[00:55:59] So they were only like actually worshiping Roman gods for like maybe another couple hundred

[00:56:03] years after that.

[00:56:04] That's very interesting.

[00:56:05] Just FYI.

[00:56:06] Because like we always associate the Romans with the Greeks and you know, they all had

[00:56:13] the same gods and goddesses.

[00:56:15] More ish.

[00:56:16] Yeah.

[00:56:16] They were different names, but yeah.

[00:56:18] Right.

[00:56:18] But they serve the same purposes.

[00:56:20] Right.

[00:56:20] Yeah.

[00:56:20] And so in my head, that's just what they do.

[00:56:23] Right.

[00:56:23] And I never thought of the Romans as becoming Christian.

[00:56:27] Well, and the Greeks would have probably too, right?

[00:56:30] Because they had the Greek Septuagint, like it became Greek Orthodox Church.

[00:56:34] Like there's a, that is true.

[00:56:35] There's a whole Greek aspect to that.

[00:56:37] No, you're right.

[00:56:38] But of course, when we call them Christian, we're referring to Catholicism, not the Christianity

[00:56:45] of the Americas as we know it today.

[00:56:47] Right.

[00:56:47] And that's an important distinction to make because it ain't the same.

[00:56:52] Right.

[00:56:53] Right.

[00:56:54] And, and it's actually, um, Catholicism is quite pagan and is where the early adoption

[00:57:00] of, um, turning the Greek and Roman religions into something that they could all practice

[00:57:08] together.

[00:57:09] Yeah.

[00:57:09] That's where that all started.

[00:57:11] Right.

[00:57:11] So again, the Christianity in the Americas today is not the source of, not the same as

[00:57:18] the source of where it sprang from.

[00:57:20] Oh yeah, definitely not.

[00:57:21] It's just, I forget that.

[00:57:22] Like when they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, they became Christian.

[00:57:25] And I'm like, oh, but wait a minute.

[00:57:29] They like, we need a different word.

[00:57:31] You know, they became Christian.

[00:57:34] Yes.

[00:57:35] But different Christian from what today is.

[00:57:38] They became Catholic.

[00:57:39] They became very early, like still pagan.

[00:57:44] Sure.

[00:57:45] You know?

[00:57:45] Sure.

[00:57:46] They became monotheistic and called it Christianity, which eventually developed into what America

[00:57:52] calls it today.

[00:57:53] Right.

[00:57:53] Like, that's just like a whole sentence that I need to keep in my head that I always forget

[00:57:59] about.

[00:58:00] Yeah.

[00:58:01] All right.

[00:58:02] Let's move on.

[00:58:03] Okay.

[00:58:03] So we're leaving Petra behind, but it's always going to be in my heart.

[00:58:09] All right.

[00:58:10] So, um, we're moving on and then God gives his judgment against Edom and says, it'll be

[00:58:15] complete.

[00:58:16] Okay.

[00:58:16] So God further states that no remnant will remain and that the enemy will search out his

[00:58:21] people and totally subdue them and that none of their allies will stand by them.

[00:58:26] Though they suck and they'll be alone.

[00:58:28] See, that's where it goes wrong though.

[00:58:29] Right?

[00:58:30] Because they were literally allied with, you know, the Israel bands and yeah.

[00:58:35] So yeah, whatever.

[00:58:37] Okay.

[00:58:37] When the enemy soldiers plunder Edom, they will take everything.

[00:58:41] They will seize even the treasures that the Edomites have hidden in caves in the mountains.

[00:58:48] Edom prided itself in its political skill and military strategy.

[00:58:52] Its leaders thought they were cleverer than the leaders of neighboring nations and often

[00:58:58] use their cunning to cheat their allies.

[00:59:00] Those cheaters from the perspective of someone who doesn't like them.

[00:59:04] Yeah.

[00:59:04] Right.

[00:59:05] And who would rather be the one doing the cheating.

[00:59:07] Right.

[00:59:08] Yeah.

[00:59:08] Yeah.

[00:59:09] Cheaters always accuse others of cheating.

[00:59:11] How do you cheat at war anyway?

[00:59:11] I don't really understand that concept exactly.

[00:59:13] I don't know.

[00:59:14] I mean, there are bad ways to wage wars, I suppose.

[00:59:18] Well, I mean.

[00:59:19] In polite society.

[00:59:20] Like.

[00:59:20] We have war crimes today.

[00:59:23] Yeah.

[00:59:23] And so if somebody commits war crimes, we would consider that a form of cheating at war.

[00:59:29] Definitely.

[00:59:30] But again, I think war is an atrocity in and of itself.

[00:59:33] Right.

[00:59:34] It's like we've agreed how to kill each other.

[00:59:36] Right.

[00:59:37] There are only certain things that we can do when we agree to kill each other.

[00:59:41] What?

[00:59:41] Yeah.

[00:59:42] It's such a weird concept.

[00:59:44] It is.

[00:59:45] And it isn't.

[00:59:46] But it is.

[00:59:47] As long as we're going to kill each other, let's agree to do it as nicely as possible,

[00:59:51] but only sometimes and under certain circumstances.

[00:59:54] Yeah.

[00:59:54] And I mean, if either one of us can get away with cheating, totally that's fine.

[00:59:58] Well, yeah.

[01:00:00] Yeah.

[01:00:00] And countries push the boundaries all the time, even today.

[01:00:03] So I'm like, so why not just not?

[01:00:06] Like, why are we pretending that murder in stages is OK?

[01:00:10] Right.

[01:00:10] Like, why don't we stop calling it war with, you know, human rights and stuff?

[01:00:17] And why don't we just call it murdering nations?

[01:00:20] We're going at murder.

[01:00:21] We're going at murder.

[01:00:21] Everybody, you know, sign up for the military and support your country in murder today.

[01:00:26] Yeah.

[01:00:27] I think even the most like let's take World War Two, for example.

[01:00:32] Right.

[01:00:32] Mm hmm.

[01:00:33] There even the allied sides did some horrific things.

[01:00:37] Mm hmm.

[01:00:38] Right.

[01:00:38] We always hear the wonderful shit that the allies did.

[01:00:41] Right.

[01:00:41] The greatest generation.

[01:00:43] Right.

[01:00:43] But I mean, if you if you've ever read Kurt Vonnegut and you've read Slaughterhouse Five.

[01:00:48] Yes.

[01:00:49] You are familiar with the Dresden bombings.

[01:00:51] Yes.

[01:00:51] Right.

[01:00:51] And that was a horrific thing that the allies did.

[01:00:59] Mm hmm.

[01:01:00] And that's a big enemy as well.

[01:01:01] But it doesn't take away from the fact that we did something terrible to human beings.

[01:01:06] Right.

[01:01:06] Like we did.

[01:01:07] We absolutely did.

[01:01:08] Yeah.

[01:01:09] And there is no denying that fact.

[01:01:11] And it's no matter how you cut it, it is terrible.

[01:01:15] Mm hmm.

[01:01:15] You know, and you can go through history.

[01:01:18] And I know that, you know, we all like as as as people in our own countries, we love

[01:01:25] to love our country, generally speaking.

[01:01:27] Sure.

[01:01:27] I'm not saying that that's across the board.

[01:01:29] You want to be proud of where you came from and glad that, you know, your country is a

[01:01:34] place that you can call home.

[01:01:36] Sure.

[01:01:36] But part of my political awakening was realizing that the United States isn't perfect.

[01:01:41] The United States is far from perfect.

[01:01:43] Mm hmm.

[01:01:43] Like we fuck up a lot.

[01:01:45] We we fuck over people a lot.

[01:01:47] Yeah.

[01:01:47] Like it's it's a thing that happens in our country where we do things wrong.

[01:01:53] Yeah.

[01:01:53] And and it affects entire cultures, you know, and I it's it's just one of like to

[01:01:59] me, there is no correct war.

[01:02:01] No.

[01:02:01] War is just bad no matter what.

[01:02:03] And we do everything we can to possibly avoid it.

[01:02:06] Right.

[01:02:06] But I'm not saying that there aren't times that it's unfortunately necessary, like self-defense

[01:02:13] or in defending weaker people.

[01:02:16] Right.

[01:02:17] But we only seem to do that when we have a financial interest in it.

[01:02:21] And that makes it a little less noble, you know?

[01:02:24] Yeah.

[01:02:24] Right.

[01:02:25] It.

[01:02:26] And I don't know.

[01:02:27] We're getting off topic.

[01:02:28] Yeah.

[01:02:28] No, definitely.

[01:02:29] But war is bad.

[01:02:30] War is bad.

[01:02:31] So it's just I understand that it's going to happen, but let's not sugarcoat it.

[01:02:36] Let's not.

[01:02:36] It's not good.

[01:02:38] It's bad.

[01:02:38] There's murder.

[01:02:39] We're killing each other.

[01:02:40] I do feel like countries are a little bit too eager to do it.

[01:02:43] Yeah.

[01:02:44] You know, like as a as a general rule, there is way too much war in the world.

[01:02:48] Yes.

[01:02:48] In my opinion.

[01:02:49] No, there.

[01:02:49] I don't think that's an opinion.

[01:02:51] That's it.

[01:02:52] It's literally anti.

[01:02:56] It's anti evolutionary going on.

[01:03:02] No, like whatever the word is, I'm not I'm speaking off the top of my stupid potato head here.

[01:03:08] OK, but it's literally the opposite of the primary directive of creatures, not just humans,

[01:03:19] but all animals, you know?

[01:03:21] Right.

[01:03:22] We want to live as a species.

[01:03:23] Yes.

[01:03:24] Therefore, we shouldn't kill each other.

[01:03:25] Right.

[01:03:25] Like that's just a social contract that we have with each other not to murder each other.

[01:03:29] It's not just the social contract.

[01:03:31] It's the evolutionary contract.

[01:03:34] Right.

[01:03:34] We're supposed to eat, fuck and procreate.

[01:03:37] Now, you could argue if we're going with evolutionary and societal, right, that there are diminishing resources so that it therefore it makes sense to go to war at some level.

[01:03:48] And pandemics fall under that, too.

[01:03:50] It's the way of Earth cleansing itself and making resources.

[01:03:54] Sure.

[01:03:55] Available without.

[01:03:56] There's lots of there's lots of ways to argue this.

[01:03:57] But my my end goal, my end point of view is always that killing people is bad.

[01:04:05] Yeah.

[01:04:05] It's an atrocious thing to do.

[01:04:07] And I don't care how you justify it to me.

[01:04:11] You can't.

[01:04:11] Right.

[01:04:12] It's not going to be justified.

[01:04:13] Right.

[01:04:14] Either you're killing people.

[01:04:15] The whole piece through strength is that's no, I'm not OK with it.

[01:04:21] Right.

[01:04:21] You know, like you're trying to put a smiley face on a murder.

[01:04:26] Sure.

[01:04:27] And it doesn't work for me.

[01:04:29] Right.

[01:04:29] So, OK, moving on.

[01:04:30] Yeah.

[01:04:31] Yeah.

[01:04:32] So they cheated their allies at war, whatever that means.

[01:04:36] Their shame and defeat will therefore be all the greater when they discover that some of these neighboring nations whom they thought were trusted allies have betrayed them and helped bring about their downfall.

[01:04:48] But that's not how it ended up, though.

[01:04:50] No.

[01:04:50] OK, no.

[01:04:51] Just double checking those fucking Edomites.

[01:04:54] Yeah.

[01:04:54] Right.

[01:04:54] I'm telling you justice for Esau.

[01:04:57] OK, right.

[01:04:58] So then I'm going to read verse nine.

[01:05:01] Your warriors Taman will be terrified and everyone in Esau's mountains will be cut down in the slaughter.

[01:05:08] So Esau's mountains is Mount Seir.

[01:05:12] OK, that's what we're talking about there.

[01:05:13] OK, so then we talk about why judgment is coming against Edom as if we haven't already said enough.

[01:05:21] Right.

[01:05:21] Obadiah explains why God will punish Edom so severely when the Babylonian armies attacked and plundered Jerusalem.

[01:05:29] Edom did nothing to help its brother nation instead helping the attackers.

[01:05:33] So glad were they to see Jerusalem plundered, even joining in the plundering themselves.

[01:05:40] Worse, they helped the Babylonians capture Jerusalem by cutting off the escape route of those who tried to flee.

[01:05:47] Wait, now we're back to Babylon conquering.

[01:05:50] So it's not when they were still around and allied with the Israelites in whatever time frame it was when they were fighting the Romans.

[01:05:59] Right.

[01:05:59] We're now back to the like this is where I struggle with the things that apologists put together.

[01:06:04] Right.

[01:06:05] So like, no, it's this thing.

[01:06:06] No way.

[01:06:07] It's that thing.

[01:06:07] Wait, it's probably I don't know.

[01:06:10] Well, no, Obadiah was so we think written during the Babylonian exile.

[01:06:16] No, I get it.

[01:06:16] The thing that we were talking about with the Romans, that was facts that I threw in later that are outside of the Bible and Bible curriculum because they never got fully conquered.

[01:06:28] Right.

[01:06:29] They never got fully destroyed.

[01:06:30] Right.

[01:06:31] They did not get destroyed until they teamed up with Rome or whatever.

[01:06:35] Right.

[01:06:35] So that was way later in the A.D.

[01:06:38] Right.

[01:06:38] Or no, they teamed up with the Israelites.

[01:06:40] Yes.

[01:06:40] And got conquered by Rome.

[01:06:42] Right.

[01:06:42] My bad.

[01:06:42] Sorry.

[01:06:43] Yes.

[01:06:43] Thank you.

[01:06:44] Yeah.

[01:06:44] All right.

[01:06:45] So moving on, we're going to talk about the deliverance on Mount Zion and a promise of judgment against Edom.

[01:06:51] Okay.

[01:06:52] Making this promisey promise, promise, promise.

[01:06:55] It's common judgment, judgment.

[01:06:56] Okay.

[01:06:58] Gone.

[01:06:58] God then expands on their particular offense and threatens them with speedy recourse, which doesn't seem very speedy to me.

[01:07:07] In the day of the Lord, God will intervene in human affairs and punish sinners according to their sins.

[01:07:14] The Edomites celebrated their plunder of Jerusalem by holding wild drinking parties among the ruins of the temple on Mount Zion.

[01:07:22] They, as well as Jerusalem's other enemies, will now be drunk in a different way.

[01:07:28] Mm-hmm.

[01:07:28] They will drink the cup of God's wrath.

[01:07:31] Oh, no.

[01:07:32] Until unable to stand any longer, they will stagger and fall.

[01:07:37] I see.

[01:07:38] Okay.

[01:07:38] Yeah.

[01:07:38] Yeah.

[01:07:38] Yeah.

[01:07:39] Yeah.

[01:07:39] So God will use Israel to bring judgment against Edom.

[01:07:43] Got it.

[01:07:43] Is what we're about to talk about here.

[01:07:45] Okay.

[01:07:46] And I'm like, whatever.

[01:07:47] Yeah.

[01:07:47] The Babylonians accordingly subdued the Edomites and expelled them from Arabia, Petraea, of which they never afterwards recovered possession.

[01:07:57] And I'm like.

[01:07:58] Got it.

[01:07:58] If you say so.

[01:08:00] Having punished Jerusalem's enemies, God says he will release his people from captivity and bring them back to their homeland.

[01:08:07] He will restore holiness to Mount Zion, but send a fitting judgment upon Edom.

[01:08:13] He will destroy Edom as a fire burns up a field of dry grass.

[01:08:18] From Jerusalem, the reestablished Israelite nation will expand south into Edomite territory, west over Philistine territory, north over its own territory that the Philistines had seized, and east across Jordan to retake former territory there.

[01:08:38] Captives will be taken from various camps in foreign countries and resettled permanently in their own land from Phoenicia in the north to the Negev in the south.

[01:08:48] So I'm going to read verse 18.

[01:08:51] Okay.

[01:08:51] Jacob will be afire and Joseph aflame.

[01:08:54] Esau will be stubble, and they will set him on fire and destroy him.

[01:08:57] There will be no survivors from Esau.

[01:09:00] The Lord has spoken.

[01:09:00] I already read that earlier.

[01:09:02] Sure.

[01:09:02] I'm wanting to reference it again.

[01:09:04] Got it.

[01:09:04] Yeah.

[01:09:04] After their return from captivity, the Jews called here the house of Jacob and the house of Joseph did break out as a flame upon the Edomites.

[01:09:14] They reduced them into slavery and obliged them to receive circumcision and to practice the rights of the Jewish religion.

[01:09:21] Now we're going to be reading about that in first and second Maccabean.

[01:09:26] Oh, when we get into the Maccabees.

[01:09:28] Right.

[01:09:29] Yeah.

[01:09:29] Which is the first and second Maccabees.

[01:09:31] Apocryphal stuff.

[01:09:32] Right.

[01:09:33] I think.

[01:09:34] I don't know.

[01:09:35] I always forget.

[01:09:36] It is.

[01:09:37] Okay.

[01:09:37] I'll go with you on that.

[01:09:38] I think.

[01:09:39] I don't think it's apocryphal.

[01:09:40] I think it's in Catholic.

[01:09:42] It is.

[01:09:42] Yeah.

[01:09:43] So it's considered apocryphal by the Christians, but not Catholic.

[01:09:47] Right.

[01:09:47] Even though Catholics are Christians.

[01:09:50] Sort of.

[01:09:51] Yeah.

[01:09:51] Yes.

[01:09:52] Ish.

[01:09:53] Right.

[01:09:53] Sort of.

[01:09:54] I mean, they are.

[01:09:55] They consider themselves Christians.

[01:09:56] Right.

[01:09:56] But Christians wouldn't consider Catholics Christian.

[01:09:58] They do.

[01:09:59] Exactly.

[01:10:00] But they don't.

[01:10:01] They think that they are paganish Christians.

[01:10:04] Right.

[01:10:04] Yeah.

[01:10:05] But they still are better than heathens like you and me.

[01:10:08] Sure.

[01:10:08] Because at least they believe in one God and that Jesus is his son who died for their sins or whatever and came back to life.

[01:10:17] Whatever.

[01:10:18] However that goes.

[01:10:19] Right.

[01:10:19] Right.

[01:10:19] All right.

[01:10:20] So I'm going to read verse.

[01:10:21] Wait.

[01:10:23] That was 18.

[01:10:24] Now I'm reading verse 19 again.

[01:10:26] Okay.

[01:10:27] People from the Negev will occupy the mountains of Esau and people from the foothills will possess the land of the Philistines.

[01:10:34] They will occupy the fields of Ephraim and Samaria and Benjamin will possess Gilead.

[01:10:39] Gilead.

[01:10:40] Okay.

[01:10:40] Okay.

[01:10:41] So in this and the following verse, which I'll read in a moment, the prophet shows the different districts which should be occupied by the Israelites after their return from Babylon.

[01:10:52] Okay.

[01:10:52] So he's like, after you return from Babylon, you guys are going to retake all these lands.

[01:10:57] Got it.

[01:10:57] And I don't know that that actually happened.

[01:10:59] Right.

[01:11:00] But God says it will.

[01:11:02] And these people believe it.

[01:11:03] Sure.

[01:11:04] Edom lay to the south, the Philistines to the west, or Philistines.

[01:11:10] I always get that wrong.

[01:11:11] Ephraim to the north and Gilead to the east.

[01:11:14] Those who returned from Babylon were to extend themselves everywhere.

[01:11:19] Got it.

[01:11:19] Okay.

[01:11:20] Yeah.

[01:11:20] Okay.

[01:11:20] So verse 20 reads, this company of Israelite exiles who are in Canaan will possess the land as far as Zarephath.

[01:11:28] The exiles from Jerusalem who are in Sephiroth will possess the towns of the Negev.

[01:11:35] And remember, I was like, well, I think Sephiroth is the Hebrew word for Spain, but I don't know what the hell is Zarephath.

[01:11:42] Yeah.

[01:11:42] Yeah.

[01:11:42] So Zarephath is also Sarepta, a city of the Sidonians mentioned in first Kings.

[01:11:51] Yeah.

[01:11:51] I think the Sidonians were the ones that chopped the cedar trees and stuff.

[01:11:55] If I recall correctly.

[01:11:56] I believe so.

[01:11:56] I believe so.

[01:11:58] So they will possess the whole city of Phoenicia called here that of the Canaanites.

[01:12:03] Okay.

[01:12:03] Is what is being said.

[01:12:05] Got it.

[01:12:05] Okay.

[01:12:05] Yeah.

[01:12:06] Um, there were some argument about whether Sephiroth actually means Spain.

[01:12:13] Um, when I was reading it just from the historians and scholars.

[01:12:18] Yeah.

[01:12:19] It was just, yeah, that's Spain.

[01:12:20] But then when I was reading it from the Christian apologists sources, they were like, we don't

[01:12:27] know.

[01:12:27] It might be France.

[01:12:28] It might be Spain.

[01:12:29] It might be.

[01:12:30] And they named a bunch of other countries, but those are the only two that stuck in my

[01:12:33] brain.

[01:12:34] But I was just like, okay.

[01:12:37] Yeah.

[01:12:38] So.

[01:12:38] Spain then.

[01:12:38] Right.

[01:12:39] But it sounds like maybe that that is because there was never any evidence of that happening,

[01:12:43] probably.

[01:12:44] And they're like, we don't know what it, you know, like if they don't know, then it could

[01:12:46] be explained away.

[01:12:48] Right.

[01:12:49] I guess.

[01:12:49] I don't know.

[01:12:50] The historians and scholars are the people I'm going to trust, not the apologists who just

[01:12:56] shit out ideas.

[01:12:57] Well, that's what I'm saying.

[01:12:57] Like the apologists would, if it, if it never happened, they're going to be like, well,

[01:13:00] we don't know what that means exactly.

[01:13:02] Right.

[01:13:03] But then the scholars would be like, yeah, that's Spain.

[01:13:05] Yeah.

[01:13:05] Like we studied Hebrew and that's what that means.

[01:13:09] Right.

[01:13:09] So go fuck yourself.

[01:13:10] I mean, that's what I would say.

[01:13:12] If I knew Hebrew.

[01:13:14] Sure.

[01:13:14] I was learning words and reading the Bible and I knew that that was Spain.

[01:13:18] I would say to apologists, go fuck yourself.

[01:13:22] Yeah.

[01:13:22] Right.

[01:13:22] Because I'm crude like that.

[01:13:24] Sure.

[01:13:25] All right.

[01:13:26] About to finish up here.

[01:13:27] Okay.

[01:13:27] The final verse in this whole entire book of one chapter is about the saviors coming to

[01:13:34] Mount Zion.

[01:13:35] The final verse contains a prophecy of the restoration of the Jews from Babylonian captivity

[01:13:40] and of Israel's victory over all their former enemies.

[01:13:45] The end.

[01:13:46] Isn't that just wonderful?

[01:13:48] Yep.

[01:13:49] Yep.

[01:13:49] So that's it.

[01:13:50] That's the book of Obadiah.

[01:13:52] Okay.

[01:13:53] That is a Q and a and a book recap.

[01:13:56] I actually, after listening to your, your, you know, information there, kind of want to

[01:14:01] see that city.

[01:14:02] I know.

[01:14:03] Right.

[01:14:03] That is, that is really cool.

[01:14:05] I want to see.

[01:14:06] I definitely, I definitely am going to look up some pictures.

[01:14:08] Yeah.

[01:14:08] I looked up pictures too.

[01:14:10] It's really neat.

[01:14:11] It reminded me as you were talking about it.

[01:14:14] I don't know if you were.

[01:14:15] So like one of my favorite movie series when I was younger was, oh, the Harrison Ford.

[01:14:23] He's a Indiana Jones.

[01:14:25] Yeah.

[01:14:26] Yeah.

[01:14:26] Yeah.

[01:14:26] Yeah.

[01:14:27] Yeah.

[01:14:27] But there was one at the, the last one where his dad was with them and it was a.

[01:14:32] Indiana Jones and the crusade.

[01:14:35] Last crusade.

[01:14:35] Last crusade.

[01:14:36] Yeah.

[01:14:36] Yeah.

[01:14:36] And there was like this beautiful, like carved in area that was in rocks and like it was

[01:14:42] a hidden thing.

[01:14:43] And I was thinking of that as you were saying that.

[01:14:45] I wonder if that's what, that's interesting.

[01:14:47] Right.

[01:14:48] Yeah.

[01:14:48] Okay.

[01:14:48] Well, we'll get back to you on that.

[01:14:50] No, I just, it was a, it reminded me of that, that movie because.

[01:14:54] You know, that wasn't the final movie.

[01:14:56] You said it was the last one, but it wasn't the last.

[01:14:58] No, you're right.

[01:14:59] You're right.

[01:14:59] But last one as I was when I was younger.

[01:15:01] Sure.

[01:15:02] So, but yeah, but that's what, that's what I was thinking of the whole time.

[01:15:05] Okay.

[01:15:05] I'm probably going to piss off everybody here, but I really enjoyed the most recent one.

[01:15:11] The dial of destiny.

[01:15:13] It actually made me cry because I just felt like it was, it felt a lot like the original

[01:15:19] series and it was fun.

[01:15:22] It had the same tone and mood.

[01:15:23] Now, granted I was watching it with my husband and with my kid.

[01:15:27] And so that could have lent to it, but I just, I appreciated it and it brought the right

[01:15:31] mood and it was fun and I loved it.

[01:15:33] I think it was what it was, right?

[01:15:34] Yes.

[01:15:35] It was a callback to a movie franchise that we loved when we were younger and it did all

[01:15:40] the right things to call back those memories.

[01:15:42] Having said that, I didn't really love the one prior to that.

[01:15:46] Right.

[01:15:47] So I don't just have the nostalgia.

[01:15:50] If it's nostalgia, I love it for the sake of loving it.

[01:15:53] Sure.

[01:15:53] Just to be clear, I think it was something about skull something crystal school.

[01:15:57] I honestly don't remember what that one is.

[01:15:58] Yeah.

[01:15:59] It had.

[01:15:59] Oh, I forget the kid's name in it.

[01:16:01] Sure.

[01:16:01] I almost tell her maybe I could be wrong.

[01:16:03] Sorry if I'm wrong.

[01:16:04] Yeah.

[01:16:04] Anyway, I didn't love that.

[01:16:05] I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it.

[01:16:07] This last one, the dial of destiny.

[01:16:09] I absolutely loved and you can hate me and cut me off if you want.

[01:16:14] And I'm fine with that.

[01:16:15] I said what I said and no regrets.

[01:16:17] Right.

[01:16:18] Right.

[01:16:18] Well, on that note, I think we have covered Obadiah pretty well here.

[01:16:23] I think we did too.

[01:16:24] But we do still have one more episode in the series, which will be...

[01:16:28] You're always wrong if I can find anything that says so.

[01:16:32] Or our contradictions episode, which we will be back tomorrow with.

[01:16:37] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:37] And we'll...

[01:16:38] No.

[01:16:39] Because...

[01:16:40] No, yes.

[01:16:41] You're right.

[01:16:42] And then on Wednesday night will be our live Discord at 10 p.m. Eastern.

[01:16:50] Yes.

[01:16:51] Yes.

[01:16:51] I always get that confused.

[01:16:53] The recording versus the publishing.

[01:16:56] Right.

[01:16:57] And that will be, obviously, the night before Thanksgiving.

[01:17:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:00] So if you're able to join us, definitely do.

[01:17:04] Some people will have some time off.

[01:17:06] Maybe this is the time where you can find, you know, some time to come join us that night.

[01:17:10] Right.

[01:17:10] Right.

[01:17:11] So hopefully we'll see you there.

[01:17:13] Link is always in the show notes.

[01:17:15] So go check that out.

[01:17:16] And then...

[01:17:16] And we'll be covering our Patreon episode, which is the continuation of the series, Cults

[01:17:24] Versus Religion.

[01:17:26] Yes.

[01:17:26] So you definitely want to stay tuned for that.

[01:17:28] Right.

[01:17:29] Right.

[01:17:29] Yeah, it was good stuff.

[01:17:31] All right.

[01:17:32] Well, we'll see you guys then.

[01:17:33] Bye.

[01:17:36] Bye.

[01:17:42] Bye.

[01:17:42] Guess what we're doing today.

[01:17:44] Well, I believe this is the last episode for Obadiah.

[01:17:48] It sure as fuck is.

[01:17:49] Which means that we're doing...

[01:17:51] You're always wrong.

[01:17:53] Or contradictions, as I like to call it.

[01:17:55] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:55] And a pop quiz.

[01:17:56] And a pop quiz.

[01:17:58] I got an 80%.

[01:17:59] You got an 80.

[01:18:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:00] Okay.

[01:18:00] Well, I beat you last time.

[01:18:01] I know.

[01:18:02] So we'll see how this one goes.

[01:18:04] I expect you'll beat me on this one, too.

[01:18:05] I don't know.

[01:18:06] I don't know.

[01:18:06] That one page was hard to remember.

[01:18:09] So we'll see.

[01:18:10] But it was for me, apparently.

[01:18:13] All right.

[01:18:14] So you got some good contradictions for us today?

[01:18:16] I have exactly one contradiction.

[01:18:18] One contradiction.

[01:18:18] Okay.

[01:18:19] Okay.

[01:18:19] All right.

[01:18:20] Well, let's get into it.

[01:18:22] Okie dokie.

[01:18:28] All right.

[01:18:29] I am so ready and just excited for this.

[01:18:34] You're always wrong.

[01:18:36] All right.

[01:18:37] Yeah.

[01:18:37] That was good.

[01:18:38] I appreciate the enthusiasm.

[01:18:40] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:40] I have one question for you, husband.

[01:18:43] One.

[01:18:43] Okay.

[01:18:44] Husband?

[01:18:45] Yes.

[01:18:45] Wife?

[01:18:46] How should the Edomites be treated?

[01:18:49] With dignity and humanity.

[01:18:52] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:52] Okay.

[01:18:53] Okay.

[01:18:53] That would be my choice.

[01:18:54] If I were to choose, just out of the blue.

[01:18:56] That is one of the options.

[01:18:57] Be nice to them.

[01:18:58] Yeah.

[01:18:58] In Deuteronomy, it does say, thou shalt not abhor an Edomite, specifically straight up,

[01:19:03] for he is thy brother.

[01:19:05] Right.

[01:19:05] Yeah.

[01:19:05] Okay.

[01:19:06] Because they were literally brothers, like, you know, in the Old Testament.

[01:19:09] Jacob and Esau.

[01:19:10] Right.

[01:19:10] From whom the Edomites descend.

[01:19:13] Yeah.

[01:19:13] Right.

[01:19:14] But guess what?

[01:19:16] I'm wrong.

[01:19:18] You're always wrong.

[01:19:20] Yes, we should kill them.

[01:19:22] Okay?

[01:19:23] Mm.

[01:19:23] That's a dramatic change.

[01:19:24] He, he.

[01:19:25] In 2 Kings, it says, and he, Amaziah, did that which was right in the sight of the Lord.

[01:19:31] He slew of Edom in the Valley of Salt, 10,000.

[01:19:36] Oh, shit.

[01:19:37] Yeah.

[01:19:37] That's a lot of Edomites.

[01:19:38] Mm-hmm.

[01:19:39] That's not cool.

[01:19:40] No.

[01:19:40] No.

[01:19:40] And then in Ezekiel, it says, I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom and he will, and will

[01:19:46] cut off man and beast from it.

[01:19:49] I see.

[01:19:50] Okay?

[01:19:50] I have to interject here for just a second because it feels like to me that this is happening

[01:19:55] because of political changes.

[01:19:57] Like, you know, they liked him at one point in time earlier on in the Old Testament during

[01:20:02] Moses' time, right?

[01:20:04] But then they wouldn't let him through.

[01:20:05] Then something happened and then they stopped liking them.

[01:20:07] Yeah.

[01:20:07] It wasn't, like, if God didn't like the Edomites, he wouldn't have liked the Edomites the whole

[01:20:11] time.

[01:20:12] Right.

[01:20:12] Exactly.

[01:20:13] That doesn't track.

[01:20:15] It doesn't track.

[01:20:15] But okay, whatever.

[01:20:16] But then in two different places in Obadiah.

[01:20:19] Yeah.

[01:20:20] In Obadiah verse one, it says, thus saith the Lord God concerning Edom, arise ye and let

[01:20:27] us rise up against her in battle.

[01:20:29] Hmm.

[01:20:30] Yeah.

[01:20:30] And then in verses eight and nine, it says, shall I not in that day, saith the Lord, even

[01:20:36] destroy the wise men out of Edom and understanding out of the Mount of Esau that every one of

[01:20:43] the Mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

[01:20:47] Wow.

[01:20:48] Wow.

[01:20:48] Yeah.

[01:20:49] That is, that is, that's dramatic.

[01:20:51] That's a, and it's weird because, you know, again, God's word said two different things

[01:20:57] about the Edomites.

[01:20:58] Yeah.

[01:20:58] Strange, right?

[01:20:59] Like, it's almost like it just doesn't even matter.

[01:21:02] If God knew they were going to be shitty later, he would have thought they were shitty

[01:21:05] before.

[01:21:06] Yeah.

[01:21:06] And I'm just saying like this, it doesn't, if we're talking about an all knowing, all

[01:21:09] powerful God, it doesn't really make fucking sense.

[01:21:12] It doesn't.

[01:21:13] All right.

[01:21:14] Well, that's all I have for the, you're always wrong section.

[01:21:17] Okay.

[01:21:17] Would you like to move on to the pop quiz?

[01:21:21] Might as well.

[01:21:22] Might as well.

[01:21:22] Yeah.

[01:21:22] I mean, this was a short chapter, a short book.

[01:21:25] It was a short book.

[01:21:26] I wouldn't even like call it a book generally speaking, except for that it's a book in the

[01:21:30] Bible.

[01:21:30] Right.

[01:21:30] So it was a page in the Bible.

[01:21:32] Yeah.

[01:21:33] Yeah.

[01:21:34] All right.

[01:21:35] Number one.

[01:21:36] Why would shame cover Edom according to Obadiah?

[01:21:41] Multiple choices.

[01:21:42] Ready?

[01:21:43] Yeah.

[01:21:44] Idolatry, sacrilege, violence done to his brother and ignorance.

[01:21:49] Let me read that again for our friends playing along at home.

[01:21:51] Sure.

[01:21:52] Why would shame cover Edom according to Obadiah?

[01:21:57] Idolatry, sacrilege, violence done to his brother or ignorance?

[01:22:01] I think it was violence done to his brother.

[01:22:04] I'm pretty sure that was the right answer.

[01:22:05] And that's the one I guessed.

[01:22:06] Yeah.

[01:22:07] All right.

[01:22:07] Number two.

[01:22:08] According to Obadiah, what has deceived Edom?

[01:22:12] Pride of heart, prosperity, trust in horses or wisdom?

[01:22:17] I love the answer trust in horses.

[01:22:20] Let me read that again.

[01:22:22] Yeah.

[01:22:22] According to Obadiah, what has deceived Edom?

[01:22:27] Pride of heart, prosperity, trust in horses or wisdom?

[01:22:32] This is a tough one.

[01:22:34] And my heart wants to go with trust in horses.

[01:22:36] But I'm going to say prosperity.

[01:22:41] You're wrong.

[01:22:42] Am I?

[01:22:43] Wow.

[01:22:43] That sucks.

[01:22:44] That was one of the easy ones.

[01:22:46] Well, I screwed that one up.

[01:22:48] You did.

[01:22:48] Good.

[01:22:49] All right.

[01:22:49] Number three.

[01:22:50] According to Obadiah, what shall the house of Joseph be?

[01:22:55] Wind, stubble, flame or water?

[01:23:00] Okay.

[01:23:01] Let me read that again.

[01:23:02] According to Obadiah, what shall the house of Joseph be?

[01:23:07] Wind, stubble, flame or water?

[01:23:11] Well, I think I kind of remember this one.

[01:23:14] So I'm going to go with stubble.

[01:23:17] I think that's the one I picked and I think that's wrong.

[01:23:20] Really?

[01:23:21] Yeah.

[01:23:21] Huh.

[01:23:21] Yeah.

[01:23:22] Okay.

[01:23:23] Well, I might be failing this one.

[01:23:24] We'll see.

[01:23:25] Yeah.

[01:23:25] All right.

[01:23:26] Number four.

[01:23:27] According to Obadiah, where shall Benjamin possess?

[01:23:33] Negev, Gilead, Ephraim or Samaria?

[01:23:36] Oh shit.

[01:23:37] Right?

[01:23:37] God.

[01:23:38] I had to guess at this one.

[01:23:39] Yeah.

[01:23:39] According to Obadiah, where shall Benjamin possess?

[01:23:44] Negev, Gilead, Ephraim or Samaria?

[01:23:48] I'm going to go with Negev.

[01:23:50] I think that's the one I picked and I don't remember.

[01:23:52] Right.

[01:23:53] Yeah.

[01:23:54] Number five.

[01:23:55] According to Obadiah, whose mighty men shall be dismayed?

[01:24:01] Israel, Egypt, Teman or Syria?

[01:24:05] Let me read it again.

[01:24:07] Okay.

[01:24:07] According to Obadiah, whose mighty men shall be dismayed?

[01:24:13] Israel, Egypt, Teman or Syria?

[01:24:17] Yeah.

[01:24:19] Um, I will have to go with Egypt.

[01:24:26] Okay.

[01:24:27] I don't know the answer to that.

[01:24:28] These are tough questions.

[01:24:30] These are hard.

[01:24:30] Yeah.

[01:24:31] I feel like I'm going to like completely bomb this test.

[01:24:34] Right?

[01:24:34] Yeah.

[01:24:34] Pretty hard for a one page.

[01:24:36] It is.

[01:24:36] Yeah.

[01:24:37] Wow.

[01:24:37] We did not study hard enough.

[01:24:38] No, I suck.

[01:24:40] Same.

[01:24:41] Yeah.

[01:24:41] Number six.

[01:24:42] What was the first thing the Lord said he will do to Edom according to Obadiah?

[01:24:47] Okay.

[01:24:48] Ready?

[01:24:48] I'm ready.

[01:24:49] I will make you small among the nations.

[01:24:52] I will be your God.

[01:24:53] I will put my mark on you or arrow will consume you.

[01:24:59] Let me read that again.

[01:25:00] Yeah.

[01:25:01] What was the first thing the Lord said he will do to Edom according to Obadiah?

[01:25:06] I will make you small among the nations.

[01:25:10] I will be your God.

[01:25:11] I will put my mark on you or arrow will consume you.

[01:25:16] I believe it was he was going to make them small among the nations.

[01:25:19] I think that is correct.

[01:25:19] And I think that's what I got.

[01:25:21] Okay.

[01:25:21] Number seven.

[01:25:22] According to Obadiah, where shall the saviors go up to rule Mount Esau?

[01:25:28] Was it Mount Nebo, Mount Hor, Mount Zion, or Mount Ararat?

[01:25:35] And I'll read it again.

[01:25:37] Okay.

[01:25:37] According to Obadiah, where shall the saviors go up to to rule Mount Esau?

[01:25:44] Was it Mount Nebo, Mount Hor, Mount Zion, or Mount Ararat?

[01:25:50] I'm pretty sure it was Mount Zion.

[01:25:53] I think you're right.

[01:25:54] And that's one of the ones I got wrong.

[01:25:56] Oh, okay.

[01:25:57] Because I guessed Mount Hor.

[01:25:59] Okay.

[01:26:00] Number eight.

[01:26:01] To where was Obadiah's vision directed?

[01:26:04] Was it Israel, Edom, Egypt, or Judah?

[01:26:09] This one's easy.

[01:26:10] I'll read it again just in case.

[01:26:12] To where was Obadiah's vision directed?

[01:26:16] Israel, Edom, Egypt, or Judah?

[01:26:20] Edom.

[01:26:21] I believe that is correct, sir.

[01:26:23] Yeah, yeah.

[01:26:24] Number nine.

[01:26:25] What did those who eat Edom's bread set beneath it according to Obadiah?

[01:26:32] A ditch, a snare, a chain, or a trap?

[01:26:37] What did those who eat Edom's bread set beneath it according to Obadiah?

[01:26:45] Was it a ditch, a snare, a chain, or a trap?

[01:26:50] I don't know for sure.

[01:26:51] And snare and trap seem like similar things, but I'm going to go with snare.

[01:26:55] I think you're wrong.

[01:26:56] Okay.

[01:26:57] I think it was a trap.

[01:26:58] Oh, well.

[01:26:58] But I could be misremembering.

[01:26:59] A snare is a type of trap, so.

[01:27:01] Hmm.

[01:27:02] But I think they're looking for the exact word that they used.

[01:27:05] Yeah, all right, all right.

[01:27:06] Number 10.

[01:27:07] According to Obadiah, where shall the exiles of the host of people of Israel possess?

[01:27:12] Was it the land of Canaanites, the land of Sephiroth, the cities of Negev, or country of the Amorite?

[01:27:23] I'll read it again.

[01:27:24] Okay.

[01:27:24] Right.

[01:27:41] I believe it was the land of the Canaanites.

[01:27:44] I believe you are correct, but we shall see.

[01:27:47] Right, yeah.

[01:27:47] Let us go over our results.

[01:27:49] Okay.

[01:27:49] Yeah.

[01:27:51] Number one.

[01:27:52] Why would shame cover Edom according to Obadiah?

[01:27:55] You got this one right.

[01:27:57] Violence done to his brother.

[01:27:58] Got it.

[01:27:59] Number two.

[01:28:00] According to Obadiah, what has deceived Edom?

[01:28:04] You got this one right.

[01:28:05] It was pride of heart.

[01:28:06] Okay.

[01:28:07] Number three.

[01:28:08] Yeah, you got this one wrong.

[01:28:10] Hmm.

[01:28:10] And I know because I guessed the same thing.

[01:28:13] Yeah.

[01:28:13] According to Obadiah, what shall the house of Joseph be?

[01:28:17] You guessed stubble.

[01:28:18] Yeah.

[01:28:19] Which I also guessed.

[01:28:19] I thought I remembered that in the section.

[01:28:21] That is a phrase that is used, but not in that context.

[01:28:25] Got it.

[01:28:26] Somebody else is stubble.

[01:28:27] They were tricking us.

[01:28:27] Yeah, yeah.

[01:28:29] They will be flame.

[01:28:30] Okay.

[01:28:31] Okay.

[01:28:31] Yeah.

[01:28:32] Number four.

[01:28:33] According to Obadiah, where shall Benjamin possess?

[01:28:37] The answer was Gilead.

[01:28:39] Oh.

[01:28:40] That's what I guessed.

[01:28:41] Okay.

[01:28:41] But you guessed Negev.

[01:28:43] I did.

[01:28:44] Yeah.

[01:28:44] So you were wrong.

[01:28:45] Okay.

[01:28:46] Actually, no.

[01:28:47] I think I guessed.

[01:28:48] You know what?

[01:28:49] I don't remember.

[01:28:50] Yeah.

[01:28:50] It's geography.

[01:28:51] I don't remember.

[01:28:52] Got it.

[01:28:53] All right.

[01:28:54] Number five.

[01:28:55] According to Obadiah, whose mighty men will be dismayed?

[01:29:01] And the choices were Israel, Egypt, Taman, or Syria.

[01:29:06] And you guessed Egypt instead of Taman, which was like obvious.

[01:29:11] Yeah.

[01:29:12] I messed that one.

[01:29:13] I don't know.

[01:29:14] You did.

[01:29:14] You messed that one up.

[01:29:15] Right.

[01:29:15] Yep.

[01:29:16] Yep.

[01:29:17] All right.

[01:29:17] Number six.

[01:29:18] What was the first thing the Lord said he will do to Edom according to Obadiah?

[01:29:22] And you got that one right.

[01:29:23] I will make you small among the nations.

[01:29:26] Right.

[01:29:26] Yes.

[01:29:27] Number seven.

[01:29:29] According to Obadiah, where shall the saviors go up to, to rule Mount Esau?

[01:29:34] You got that right.

[01:29:35] It's Mount Zion.

[01:29:36] Okay.

[01:29:36] All right.

[01:29:37] All right.

[01:29:38] Number eight.

[01:29:39] To where was Obadiah's vision directed?

[01:29:42] And you got that one right.

[01:29:43] It was Edom.

[01:29:45] Okay.

[01:29:45] That one was obvious.

[01:29:46] Yeah.

[01:29:47] Number nine.

[01:29:48] What did those who eat Edom's bread set beneath it according to Obadiah?

[01:29:53] Yeah.

[01:29:53] It was a trap, not a snare.

[01:29:55] Damn it.

[01:29:55] Yeah.

[01:29:56] You got that one wrong.

[01:29:57] I did not do better than you this time.

[01:30:00] You did not.

[01:30:01] No.

[01:30:01] You did way worse than me.

[01:30:03] Last one.

[01:30:04] Number 10.

[01:30:04] You got this one right.

[01:30:05] All right.

[01:30:05] According to Obadiah, where shall the exiles of the host of people of Israel possess?

[01:30:10] It was the land of Canaanites.

[01:30:12] I got like a 70, right?

[01:30:13] You got a 60.

[01:30:14] I got a 60.

[01:30:15] Shit.

[01:30:16] So that means you missed two more than I did.

[01:30:18] Yeah.

[01:30:18] That's saying a lot.

[01:30:19] Yeah.

[01:30:20] Yeah.

[01:30:20] Yeah.

[01:30:21] Well, I mean, you know, can't win them all.

[01:30:23] Can't win them all.

[01:30:24] Can't rain all the time.

[01:30:26] I, you know, a lot of the questions that they bring up are, it's not that important.

[01:30:32] Yeah.

[01:30:32] You know, I mean, I, I suppose if you're studying the Bible, it's nice to know some of those things

[01:30:36] exactly.

[01:30:37] But the sentiment to me is more about what I'm kind of getting at with what I want to know

[01:30:41] about the Bible.

[01:30:42] Right.

[01:30:42] So it doesn't really make me angry when I don't pass those quizzes exactly.

[01:30:47] Nah.

[01:30:47] So whatever.

[01:30:49] Whatever.

[01:30:50] Yeah.

[01:30:50] But you know what the good news is?

[01:30:52] What is the good news?

[01:30:53] We're done with Obataia.

[01:30:54] We are.

[01:30:55] We are.

[01:30:56] Um, but if you're listening to this, then the, the day that it comes out, you should join

[01:31:02] us on discord because we're going to be live on discord tonight at 10 30 PM Eastern.

[01:31:08] And there's always a link in the show notes.

[01:31:10] So just go down there and click on that and join us there.

[01:31:12] Um, and this will be a followup episode for our, um, versus religion.

[01:31:17] Yeah.

[01:31:18] So it's a, it's going to be a Patreon only.

[01:31:20] Um, unless of course you join us on discord.

[01:31:22] Yeah.

[01:31:23] So go do that now.

[01:31:24] And we hope to see you there at the live and be, and then we'll, uh, we'll be back,

[01:31:30] uh, later this will know we're probably gonna be back next week.

[01:31:33] So we're going to have our special episode come out on Thursday.

[01:31:35] Our weekly replay will come out on Friday.

[01:31:38] And then because we're starting a new book, we'll probably take the weekend off this weekend.

[01:31:41] And also happy Thanksgiving.

[01:31:43] Yeah.

[01:31:43] Happy Thanksgiving.

[01:31:43] Yeah.

[01:31:44] Yeah.

[01:31:45] And then whenever we do come back, it'll be Jonah.

[01:31:48] Yeah.

[01:31:48] Got it.

[01:31:49] Okay.

[01:31:49] And I believe that has four chapters in it.

[01:31:51] And there's like whales in that one, right?

[01:31:53] I think so.

[01:31:53] I think dude gets swallowed or some shit.

[01:31:56] That's right here.

[01:31:56] All right.

[01:31:58] Well, that's a, that's a wrap on Obadiah.

[01:32:02] It is.

[01:32:02] See you guys.

[01:32:03] Bye.

[01:32:10] Wave.

[01:32:11] Do you know what we're doing today?

[01:32:12] Yay.

[01:32:13] It's a special day.

[01:32:15] We're doing something different, but it's not.

[01:32:18] It's, it's, it's, it is for everybody.

[01:32:20] It is.

[01:32:20] This one's for everybody.

[01:32:22] It's for everybody.

[01:32:22] It is not.

[01:32:24] Patreon.

[01:32:25] No, this is the one that we, we, so every other week we do one for everybody.

[01:32:29] And then the other weeks we do one just for our patrons, which if you want to catch those,

[01:32:34] you should go to patreon.com forward slash sac religious discourse.

[01:32:39] And you can join for as little as $2 a month and get the, the Patreon episodes that are just

[01:32:45] for patrons, but currently we're in the middle of a series doing cult versus religion.

[01:32:51] Cause I accidentally opened the manhole cover and I did not know that the middle of the

[01:32:57] earth is hollow and we jumped down and we're still falling.

[01:33:02] Okay.

[01:33:03] Right.

[01:33:03] Yeah.

[01:33:03] Yeah.

[01:33:04] Um, but this one will be for everybody.

[01:33:06] So you don't have to pay for this one.

[01:33:08] You don't have to, you know, the other way you can do it.

[01:33:10] Cause we're, we're doing this.

[01:33:11] We always do our, our, uh, special episodes on our discord now, which is every Wednesday

[01:33:16] evening at 10 PM Eastern.

[01:33:19] Eastern.

[01:33:20] And, um, there is always a link in the show notes to go and join our discord.

[01:33:24] So, uh, if you want to catch them without paying us, you can do that at discord.

[01:33:29] You just gotta be there live.

[01:33:31] Yeah.

[01:33:31] Yeah.

[01:33:32] Or forever hold your peace until you pay for it.

[01:33:35] Sure.

[01:33:35] I guess you could just like chat in the, the, you know, chat areas and you can ask people

[01:33:39] like, what do they talk about?

[01:33:40] What do they talk about?

[01:33:42] What do they say?

[01:33:42] What do they say?

[01:33:44] Every time you keep saying everybody, I keep thinking everybody.

[01:33:50] That that's what came to my mind.

[01:33:55] Like at all.

[01:33:56] Yeah.

[01:33:57] In no way whatsoever.

[01:33:59] But that's what I was thinking.

[01:34:00] So anyway, the, um, what are we covering today?

[01:34:03] Oh yeah.

[01:34:04] Yeah.

[01:34:04] Um, we are covering that guy that's called the antichrist.

[01:34:09] Right.

[01:34:10] Or as he is affectionately known antichrist.

[01:34:14] Yes.

[01:34:15] Yes.

[01:34:15] Yes.

[01:34:16] And because it's, it's being talked about a lot, right?

[01:34:19] We will talk about that in a minute.

[01:34:20] We'll talk about the talking of it.

[01:34:21] Yes.

[01:34:22] Yeah.

[01:34:22] Okay.

[01:34:22] Let's go talk about it.

[01:34:23] Okay.

[01:34:30] Okay.

[01:34:30] So what's an antichrist?

[01:34:32] Um, someone who's not for Christ.

[01:34:34] He's someone who's bad.

[01:34:36] He's someone who's really bad.

[01:34:37] Someone who is a deceiving son of a bitch.

[01:34:41] Oh, I like that.

[01:34:42] The deceiver.

[01:34:43] I mean, that's, I've heard that a lot.

[01:34:44] Yeah.

[01:34:45] The deceiver has come.

[01:34:46] That's how, I mean, I, yeah, I, I guess the antichrist.

[01:34:49] Antichrist.

[01:34:49] Um, and I, the reason I think the deceiver comes up is because I think how I am aware

[01:34:55] of the antichrist is that someone that Christians will follow thinking that they're following

[01:35:03] the right path, but it's actually the wrong path.

[01:35:06] It's very confusing because, okay, here's the thing.

[01:35:09] Let's get into it.

[01:35:10] Let's cover this first.

[01:35:11] First of all, I just have to say we have not read the new Testament.

[01:35:15] No, we have not read the Jesus.

[01:35:17] He bit.

[01:35:17] No, we haven't read the Jesus.

[01:35:19] He bit.

[01:35:20] And apparently this antichrist thing comes in somewhere in.

[01:35:25] Well, you can't really have the antichrist without a Christ.

[01:35:29] Right.

[01:35:29] You're right.

[01:35:30] So I was just addressing the, this is all NT, which we have not touched yet.

[01:35:34] Yeah.

[01:35:35] I just wanted to address that right off the bat.

[01:35:36] Yeah.

[01:35:36] But it is relevant to things that are being discussed in, you know, the world today.

[01:35:41] And that's what I was going to say.

[01:35:42] Like, let's get into that because what I've been seeing, like, well, first of all, there's

[01:35:46] my parents, like they're hardcore evangelical, whatever.

[01:35:50] Sure.

[01:35:50] And they're like, you know, end days.

[01:35:53] And this is, you know, signs and stuff.

[01:35:56] And we are in the end times.

[01:35:57] And it's all, it's, it's scripture.

[01:36:00] You got to read your Bible.

[01:36:01] Revelation is just right around the corner.

[01:36:02] Yeah.

[01:36:03] And the rapture is on its way.

[01:36:06] Well, rapture isn't actually in the Bible.

[01:36:08] It's just a thing that.

[01:36:10] No, I know.

[01:36:11] I'm actually aware of that, but like, but it is a thing that, you know, they talk about

[01:36:16] it like it is, but it's not from what I understand.

[01:36:19] Well, so I don't know.

[01:36:21] We'll get there eventually.

[01:36:22] Yeah.

[01:36:22] Yeah.

[01:36:24] So these, I have my parents talking about it and, you know, with the whole war in the

[01:36:30] Middle East and I'm like, but they were, they were worn in the Middle East since before

[01:36:34] I was born.

[01:36:36] Right.

[01:36:36] Always been worn.

[01:36:37] Yeah.

[01:36:38] But then when Trump moved the embassy.

[01:36:42] Yeah.

[01:36:42] To Israel or whatever.

[01:36:44] It wasn't the, was it the embassy?

[01:36:46] I think so.

[01:36:46] Whatever.

[01:36:47] It was something.

[01:36:47] Yeah.

[01:36:48] But he, but he moved it to Jerusalem.

[01:36:49] Yeah.

[01:36:50] That's what I meant.

[01:36:50] So in that, that is a contested town because it is used for a place of worship by both Muslim

[01:36:57] and Jewish groups.

[01:36:59] Right.

[01:36:59] So like, it was not, it was one of those places that generally speaking, they kind of

[01:37:04] left alone as much as possible.

[01:37:06] It was kind of neutral ground.

[01:37:07] Like you can have it from 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. and we'll take it from like 6 p.m. to 9 p.m.

[01:37:14] and like every other Wednesdays, you know, we'll split.

[01:37:18] I mean, Israel was generally like, yeah, we probably won't shoot you.

[01:37:21] Right.

[01:37:22] You know, like that was the general consensus, I think.

[01:37:24] Mm-hmm.

[01:37:24] So you were, you were pretty safe as long as they didn't, you know, want to kill you,

[01:37:29] I guess.

[01:37:30] Yeah.

[01:37:30] So who knows?

[01:37:31] I mean, sometimes you just feel murdery.

[01:37:33] You know, I guess, I mean, God certainly does.

[01:37:36] That's what I'm saying.

[01:37:36] According to the Bible.

[01:37:37] According to the Bible.

[01:37:38] He wakes up on the wrong side of the, you know.

[01:37:41] Universe.

[01:37:41] Yeah.

[01:37:41] Yeah.

[01:37:42] And kills people a lot.

[01:37:43] So that's what I read.

[01:37:45] Yeah.

[01:37:45] So there's my parents talking about it and I'm like, whoa, what?

[01:37:49] And they seem kind of excited about it.

[01:37:52] Like, yeah, we're in the end times.

[01:37:55] And I'm like, whoa, what?

[01:37:57] Isn't that bad?

[01:37:58] Like, but you know, they're going to heaven.

[01:37:59] So what the fuck do they care?

[01:38:00] Right.

[01:38:01] But, you know, but here's the thing, though.

[01:38:03] I've heard that while there's a lot of evangelical Christians that want the end times, from what I understand, the way it's talked about in the Bible and the way it's talked about by people who have studied it is that those times, even for the Christians, is not going to be a good time.

[01:38:19] Right.

[01:38:20] It's not going to be pretty.

[01:38:21] No.

[01:38:21] And it's not going to be an antichrist.

[01:38:24] Sure.

[01:38:24] Yeah.

[01:38:25] And antichrist is going to be harder for the Christians than the atheists is what I'm thinking.

[01:38:30] Right.

[01:38:30] Yeah.

[01:38:31] Because it's specifically there to deceive them.

[01:38:33] Mm hmm.

[01:38:34] Right.

[01:38:34] Almost almost like a Trump kind of guy.

[01:38:37] Oh, you said the thing out loud.

[01:38:39] Yeah.

[01:38:40] That's where I heard it.

[01:38:41] Oh, yeah.

[01:38:42] OK.

[01:38:43] Yeah.

[01:38:43] Like I said, let's get into it.

[01:38:45] Yeah.

[01:38:46] What's been really interesting is the number of people who are in by people.

[01:38:52] I mean, Christians who are like, we're totally in the end times and all the signs and and, you know, they're going to build the temple, the, you know, over there.

[01:39:03] And it's all going to it's all coming together.

[01:39:05] Yeah.

[01:39:06] You know, like a team.

[01:39:07] I love it when a plan comes together.

[01:39:09] Right.

[01:39:09] Yeah.

[01:39:09] Yeah.

[01:39:09] Yeah.

[01:39:11] But that other part with the Antichrist thing, like, it's like they don't realize that those come together.

[01:39:18] Yeah.

[01:39:18] I really pity the fool.

[01:39:22] Sorry.

[01:39:22] We were on it.

[01:39:23] We were on an 18 motif.

[01:39:25] That was so good.

[01:39:26] Oh, I wish I could go back to time and do it myself.

[01:39:29] That was really, really good.

[01:39:32] So, OK, so there's this split in the like when I was looking at like, hey, let's talk about a Antichrist.

[01:39:39] What is that?

[01:39:39] Yeah.

[01:39:40] I mean, obviously bad guy.

[01:39:41] Sure.

[01:39:41] Is he the devil?

[01:39:43] Is he Satan?

[01:39:43] It depends who you ask.

[01:39:45] So anyway, I'm like asking these questions, looking around and I start seeing there are two groups of Christians.

[01:39:53] And I mean, yes, I know that there are more than two groups of Christians.

[01:39:56] Let me let me guess.

[01:39:57] One group of Christians think that the Antichrist is Trump and then the other group thinks it's Obama.

[01:40:02] Um, kind of, but kind of.

[01:40:05] But no, like there is one group who's like we're totally in the end times.

[01:40:11] Um, the Antichrist might be coming or might not probably whatever, but Jesus is coming.

[01:40:17] Sure.

[01:40:17] You know, we're, we're reaching the end days and Jesus is coming.

[01:40:20] He's coming.

[01:40:21] He's coming.

[01:40:22] I don't, I don't know.

[01:40:23] Why does Jesus have to live and then die and then come back, come back and then disappear?

[01:40:30] Well, he took a ride with Elijah.

[01:40:33] Wait, I thought Elijah was like way back in the old test.

[01:40:36] Yeah.

[01:40:37] Yeah.

[01:40:37] Did Elijah come down and pick him up?

[01:40:39] Like in a, in his motor car.

[01:40:40] Remember, remember he like transcribed up into the sky or something like that?

[01:40:45] Sure.

[01:40:45] Mary's up there too.

[01:40:47] Okay.

[01:40:47] Like they never died and they never like went to heaven.

[01:40:51] They're just like in some waiting room and they're all, they're all hanging about.

[01:40:54] Okay.

[01:40:54] Yeah.

[01:40:55] He's going to drop down.

[01:40:56] Like, Hey yo, what's up?

[01:40:57] Yeah, exactly.

[01:40:58] Got it.

[01:40:58] So I don't know why he had to be born, die, come back to life, take a ride and then come

[01:41:05] back.

[01:41:05] Like, I don't, I don't get it.

[01:41:06] Yeah.

[01:41:07] Like just get some Netflix and chill.

[01:41:09] I don't know.

[01:41:09] Whatever.

[01:41:10] Right.

[01:41:10] So, okay.

[01:41:11] So there's some Christians that are like, Jesus is coming.

[01:41:14] This is so exciting.

[01:41:15] I love it when the world ends.

[01:41:17] Right.

[01:41:17] There's so, I mean, they're peeing their pants.

[01:41:19] They're so fucking happy.

[01:41:20] They can't wait.

[01:41:21] Even though, you know, they would never agree that Jesus was Jesus.

[01:41:26] Right.

[01:41:27] I don't think you can get 10 people to agree which one was Jesus.

[01:41:30] No, but that's one group.

[01:41:31] Okay.

[01:41:32] And they are all the ones that are generally speaking, they are MAGA.

[01:41:35] They are the ones that voted for Trump and they're the ones that knock on doors and they're

[01:41:42] very excited.

[01:41:43] They know all the things.

[01:41:45] Sure.

[01:41:45] Okay.

[01:41:45] Whatever.

[01:41:46] Yeah.

[01:41:46] Then there's this other group that I'm, I'm still trying.

[01:41:51] I just came across them today.

[01:41:52] So I'm still trying to think about how I feel about them because they're like, y'all ain't

[01:41:59] reading your Bibles.

[01:42:00] Right.

[01:42:00] Right.

[01:42:01] And these guys are literally referred to as prophecy scholars.

[01:42:10] Okay.

[01:42:10] Because they study hardcore.

[01:42:14] The prophecies.

[01:42:15] The prophecies of the Bible.

[01:42:16] Got it.

[01:42:16] And so they're like, y'all are missing the signs as this, this, this, like, this is not

[01:42:21] a good thing.

[01:42:22] If this, this is happening and it's not a good thing because Trump is for realsies the Antichrist

[01:42:28] or like there's, there's some disagreement about it.

[01:42:31] Okay.

[01:42:32] Okay.

[01:42:32] Sometimes Trump is the Antichrist.

[01:42:35] Yeah.

[01:42:35] Other times he and, um, Elon Musk and, um, uh, what's his VP's name butthole from Middletown,

[01:42:45] Ohio?

[01:42:46] Oh, Vance.

[01:42:47] J.D. Vance.

[01:42:47] Right.

[01:42:47] Right.

[01:42:48] I couldn't think of his name.

[01:42:49] Sure.

[01:42:49] Um, they are all like beasts that come before Antichrist.

[01:42:56] Okay.

[01:42:58] Okay.

[01:42:58] Like there's, I don't know.

[01:42:59] There's just all these like different, I don't know what is it?

[01:43:02] Who is it?

[01:43:03] Who's coming?

[01:43:04] When?

[01:43:05] What?

[01:43:05] Got it.

[01:43:06] So, but, but they are more logical question mark.

[01:43:12] Like, I'm, I'm, like I said, I'm, I'm still trying to wrap my brain about around

[01:43:16] it.

[01:43:17] Who's more logical?

[01:43:17] These people that actually study the prophecies and they're like, no, y'all listen to me.

[01:43:24] It's not a good thing if we're in the end times.

[01:43:28] Right.

[01:43:28] Because the end times are bad.

[01:43:30] Right.

[01:43:30] And it means that you are being fooled and Trump is either the Antichrist or a Antichrist

[01:43:38] or a signal of the Antichrist and that is bad.

[01:43:41] And they like go through and they actually are very knowledgeable about the Bible.

[01:43:46] And I'm not saying I believe any of that shit.

[01:43:49] Okay.

[01:43:49] I don't.

[01:43:50] They're knowledgeable about that portion of the Bible at the very least.

[01:43:52] Yes.

[01:43:52] They're very knowledgeable about the prophecies and they are able to lay out like what's

[01:43:58] coming.

[01:43:59] And I got bored and couldn't listen to all of it because I don't believe in any of it.

[01:44:04] Sure.

[01:44:04] So I'm just, I found it fascinating that there are two groups of Christians and one is mega

[01:44:13] and one is actually really smart and is like, no.

[01:44:18] Right.

[01:44:18] Yeah.

[01:44:19] You know what I mean?

[01:44:20] I'm going to stop short of saying really smart, but I mean, they definitely, they definitely

[01:44:25] study the revelation.

[01:44:29] What I mean by smart is they are scholastically minded and they are Bible scholars.

[01:44:36] Is that's what I mean to say.

[01:44:38] Okay.

[01:44:39] All right.

[01:44:40] You could have a conversation with them and ask them questions and they would not think

[01:44:45] you're an asshole and immediately be like, you need to get Jesus.

[01:44:48] No, I got it.

[01:44:49] I got it.

[01:44:49] So that's what I mean.

[01:44:50] All right.

[01:44:51] But let's get a little more academic now.

[01:44:53] Okay.

[01:44:54] I just like, I had to just jump into that conversation with a, do you know anything about this guy?

[01:45:00] And what do you think of this guy?

[01:45:02] And here's why we're talking about this guy.

[01:45:04] Okay.

[01:45:04] Right.

[01:45:05] Right.

[01:45:05] Because Trump and the Middle East and everything that's going on in the world.

[01:45:08] Yeah.

[01:45:09] Okay.

[01:45:09] And everybody's talking about it.

[01:45:11] Sure.

[01:45:11] All right.

[01:45:12] So the Christian concept of antichrist finds its roots in Jewish eschatological traditions

[01:45:20] and eschatological is a fancy word for doctrine.

[01:45:23] Okay.

[01:45:24] Like eschatology doctrine.

[01:45:26] Sure.

[01:45:27] Particularly the book of Daniel written around 167 BCE.

[01:45:31] So we read the book of Daniel.

[01:45:33] Yeah.

[01:45:34] So that's where like, we originally hear about the antichrist, which is so interesting

[01:45:40] to me because like, I don't remember that.

[01:45:42] Right.

[01:45:42] It foretells the arrival of a final persecutor who would quote, speak great words against the

[01:45:49] most high and wear out the saints of the most high and think to change times and laws.

[01:45:56] And that's Daniel chapter seven, verse 25.

[01:45:59] Do you remember all that stuff with the horns and the little horns and the big horns?

[01:46:03] Yeah.

[01:46:03] Yeah.

[01:46:04] That was from Daniel.

[01:46:05] Okay.

[01:46:05] And that's part of this whole...

[01:46:08] Antichrist end times thing.

[01:46:10] And monsters.

[01:46:10] And sometimes the horns represent 10 kings who are going to be ruling the world or some

[01:46:17] shit.

[01:46:17] I don't know.

[01:46:18] Oh, it's so...

[01:46:19] There's so many different ideas.

[01:46:20] Got it.

[01:46:21] Got it.

[01:46:21] Okay.

[01:46:22] So scholars generally agree that this particular passage originally referred to the Hellenistic

[01:46:29] ruler Antiochus Epiphanes.

[01:46:32] Okay.

[01:46:32] You remember that guy?

[01:46:33] I do.

[01:46:33] He's the Greek guy who sought to eradicate Judaism.

[01:46:38] So they were like, he's totally the Antichrist.

[01:46:42] He's wiping out...

[01:46:43] And we talked about this at the time.

[01:46:46] Right.

[01:46:46] That they thought this of him.

[01:46:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:46:48] Because he's completely trying to get rid of their religion and wipe them out.

[01:46:53] And they're like, he's totally the Antichrist.

[01:46:54] Hate him.

[01:46:55] Got it.

[01:46:55] Right?

[01:46:56] However, since Antiochus was not explicitly named, later generations could apply Daniel's

[01:47:02] prophecy to other figures.

[01:47:04] And we will get into that because yeah, they did apply it to lots of figures.

[01:47:09] Sure.

[01:47:09] Even through today.

[01:47:10] I want to interject here for just a second to say that we had a live correction on our

[01:47:15] discord here.

[01:47:16] Okay.

[01:47:16] That eschatology is not just apocalyptic.

[01:47:20] It's not just doctrine.

[01:47:22] It's apocalyptic writings.

[01:47:25] Apparently.

[01:47:26] Not my understanding, but okay.

[01:47:27] I would believe...

[01:47:28] It's a possibility.

[01:47:31] I believe them because they know more than I do.

[01:47:35] But I literally, like I had to look up the word because I was like, I don't know what

[01:47:38] eschatology means.

[01:47:39] I'm not going to try to say that word.

[01:47:41] Yeah.

[01:47:42] And then it said it was just doctrine, but...

[01:47:44] Got it.

[01:47:45] Yeah.

[01:47:45] But you're reading this from like an apologist point of view sometimes.

[01:47:48] So that might've been...

[01:47:49] But I looked the word up in the dictionary because I am dumb.

[01:47:52] Oh.

[01:47:52] Okay.

[01:47:53] Okay.

[01:47:53] So...

[01:47:53] All right.

[01:47:55] The definition didn't seem to lean that way, but I was also like just trying to go

[01:48:00] through a lot of material really quickly and I could have missed it.

[01:48:03] And like I said, the person who was doing the correcting knows a lot more than I do.

[01:48:08] So I will put myself...

[01:48:10] Based on what I'm reading here, it looks like they were correct.

[01:48:12] Okay.

[01:48:12] So...

[01:48:13] I believe you and them.

[01:48:14] I just was...

[01:48:15] Nope.

[01:48:16] I appreciate that.

[01:48:17] Thank you.

[01:48:18] So early Christians, for example, saw in it an allusion to Roman emperors, particularly

[01:48:24] Nero.

[01:48:25] I've heard that before.

[01:48:26] And that's like Nero is where we get like 666 and the devil.

[01:48:31] Yep.

[01:48:31] And there's a lot of things that kind of circle around Nero.

[01:48:34] Yep.

[01:48:34] Sometimes.

[01:48:35] Yep.

[01:48:35] So, yeah.

[01:48:36] Yeah.

[01:48:36] He's like the dragon or like the beast that rose from the sea because he, you know, came

[01:48:44] on his ship or whatever.

[01:48:45] Which is funny because they still talk about him today as that.

[01:48:49] So, I mean like in some places and sometimes.

[01:48:53] But if we're talking about the Antichrist, that's supposed to be close to N times.

[01:48:58] Hmm.

[01:48:58] We'll get there.

[01:48:59] Okay.

[01:49:00] All right.

[01:49:00] You know what?

[01:49:01] Just in case I forget, I'm going to go ahead and say it now.

[01:49:04] Okay?

[01:49:04] There is the Antichrist and then there are also an Antichrist, meaning a bunch of little

[01:49:13] Antichrist peoples running around who are not the big bad Antichrist.

[01:49:18] Hmm.

[01:49:18] So, there are many who believe and that's what I was kind of getting into the arguments

[01:49:25] that the people who are not excited about the end times, those intellectual scholar Christians

[01:49:35] that are into the prophecies and stuff, they cannot agree on whether it's the Antichrist

[01:49:41] or an Antichrist.

[01:49:43] Got it.

[01:49:43] Do you think the rest of the mini Antichrist, they have like a lodge or something that they

[01:49:48] get together and do Antichrist stuff at?

[01:49:50] I was just picturing like the little army guys from, from toys, you know?

[01:49:55] Right.

[01:49:55] Yeah.

[01:49:55] Or from Toy Story.

[01:49:57] Yeah.

[01:49:57] So, anyway, Nero reigned from 54 to 68 CE, current era.

[01:50:04] Sure.

[01:50:04] Okay.

[01:50:05] And he persecuted the early church hardcore and that's why they called him an Antichrist.

[01:50:10] Right.

[01:50:11] And, you know, according to this definition where if you're saying they are an Antichrist,

[01:50:16] then yes, he and Antiochus Epiphanes were both an Antichrist, if you will.

[01:50:22] Got it.

[01:50:23] Okay.

[01:50:23] Somebody super bad who hardcore steps on their religion can be considered an Antichrist.

[01:50:28] So, like we could be considered Antichrists.

[01:50:31] Could we though?

[01:50:32] If we get a little bit more popular.

[01:50:33] We have no power.

[01:50:35] You know.

[01:50:35] You have no power over me.

[01:50:37] You know, hopefully if our podcast gets a little bit of it.

[01:50:39] Me, me, me, me, me, me.

[01:50:40] Me, me, me, me, me.

[01:50:41] The fully developed narrative of the Antichrist life and reign emerged in medieval texts.

[01:50:48] Okay.

[01:50:48] So, not the BCEs and the early CEs.

[01:50:53] Got it.

[01:50:53] Okay.

[01:50:54] Yeah.

[01:50:54] We're talking about like, you know, when you start getting into the thousands and stuff.

[01:50:59] Okay.

[01:51:00] Okay.

[01:51:01] Incorporating and expanding on these earlier associations.

[01:51:04] Okay.

[01:51:04] So, now we're going to talk about this guy named Joaquim of Flores Influence.

[01:51:11] Okay.

[01:51:11] Okay.

[01:51:12] Okay.

[01:51:12] His name is Joaquim.

[01:51:14] Got it.

[01:51:14] With an M.

[01:51:15] Got it.

[01:51:16] Okay.

[01:51:16] So, one significant medieval theologian who diverged from traditional teachings about

[01:51:23] Antichrist was Joaquim of Fiore.

[01:51:26] He was a 12th century monk.

[01:51:29] Okay.

[01:51:30] So, medieval.

[01:51:31] Right.

[01:51:32] Joaquim envisioned history as a series of persecutions of the Christian church, culminating

[01:51:39] in the appearance of a succession of Antichrists such as Nero, Muhammad, and Saladin.

[01:51:46] Okay.

[01:51:47] Yeah.

[01:51:47] So, that's where I was saying, you know, not the Antichrist, but a series of them.

[01:51:53] Sure.

[01:51:54] Okay.

[01:51:54] Yeah.

[01:51:54] A bunch of baddies throughout history.

[01:51:56] Right.

[01:51:56] So, unlike the conventional view of a single ultimate adversary, Joaquim anticipated multiple

[01:52:05] precursors to the great Antichrist.

[01:52:08] Okay.

[01:52:09] Okay.

[01:52:09] Yeah.

[01:52:10] So, the one, kind of like the Jesus.

[01:52:13] Right.

[01:52:13] Okay.

[01:52:13] So, Joaquim redefined the great Antichrist as not a Jewish figure from Babylon, which that's

[01:52:22] another thing that didn't, it got cut from this paper that I was working on.

[01:52:27] So, I'll have to go back and find it on the cutting room floor.

[01:52:30] Okay.

[01:52:31] Okay.

[01:52:32] So, originally, before this medieval times, like back in the BCEs, they were like, Antichrist

[01:52:41] is exactly opposite of Christ in every way possible.

[01:52:45] Like, Christ was born to an immaculate conception virgin.

[01:52:49] Right?

[01:52:49] So, Antichrist is totally going to be born to a whore.

[01:52:54] Yeah.

[01:52:55] It'll be a bastard.

[01:52:56] Yeah.

[01:52:57] Totally.

[01:52:57] Okay.

[01:52:58] All right.

[01:52:58] And they'll both be from this same area, but, you know, one is totally good, good, good

[01:53:05] with rainbows, and the other one is totally bad, bad, bad with like fire and horns on his

[01:53:09] head.

[01:53:10] Sure.

[01:53:10] You know what I mean?

[01:53:11] Yeah.

[01:53:11] Yeah.

[01:53:11] Yeah.

[01:53:13] Okay.

[01:53:13] Okay.

[01:53:13] Uh huh.

[01:53:14] And so, he's like, that's silly.

[01:53:16] Okay.

[01:53:17] Joaquin is like, I don't buy that.

[01:53:19] Right.

[01:53:19] Okay.

[01:53:19] So, he's like, I don't think it's going to be a Jewish guy.

[01:53:21] Okay.

[01:53:22] Okay.

[01:53:22] I don't think that he's going to come from Babylon.

[01:53:25] Okay.

[01:53:26] Got it.

[01:53:26] Or the Babylonia area, or what we call today, you know, the Middle East.

[01:53:31] Right.

[01:53:31] He's like, I don't think that's true.

[01:53:32] I don't think that's what's going to happen, y'all.

[01:53:35] He says, I think that we are going to see the embodiment of the evils within our own

[01:53:42] society, particularly things like heresy and the oppression of the church.

[01:53:47] He also predicted a wondrous millennial era between the death of the great Antichrist and

[01:53:55] the Last Judgment, which we have not even reached what's the last judgment.

[01:53:59] I'm guessing that that's like the end of end times when you stand before somebody who

[01:54:05] like weighs your soul and decides if you have enough good in you.

[01:54:09] Sure.

[01:54:10] Some shit like that.

[01:54:10] I don't know.

[01:54:11] That's my imagination.

[01:54:13] We haven't read any of that yet, so who could know?

[01:54:16] Right.

[01:54:16] I mean, except for everybody who has read it.

[01:54:19] So, to account for the events after this millennium, Joaquin prophesied or prophesied a final Antichrist

[01:54:29] whom he called Gog.

[01:54:31] Yeah, Gog and Magog.

[01:54:33] Yeah, very good.

[01:54:34] Yeah.

[01:54:34] Referring to the eschatological enemies Gog and Magog from Revelation 20, verses 7 through

[01:54:44] 9.

[01:54:44] Okay.

[01:54:44] Okay.

[01:54:45] All right.

[01:54:45] Though vague about this figure's nature, Joaquin saw him as the ultimate enemy of God, emerging

[01:54:52] to wage the final battle before the end of time.

[01:54:56] Okay?

[01:54:56] So, he's a beast.

[01:54:58] I don't remember.

[01:54:58] Where did we talk about Gog and Magog before?

[01:55:00] Was it in one of the books that we read or was it just another special episode that we

[01:55:05] did?

[01:55:05] No, there was mention of him in the Bible, but I don't remember where.

[01:55:09] Okay.

[01:55:09] I'm sure somebody in our discord.

[01:55:10] It seems like it was somewhat recently even, like within the last couple, two or three

[01:55:15] months maybe.

[01:55:16] Really?

[01:55:16] I could be wrong.

[01:55:17] I don't feel like that.

[01:55:18] Okay.

[01:55:18] But my memory is for shit, so you could totally be right.

[01:55:23] So, during the later Middle Ages, so now we're getting out of medieval times and we're moving

[01:55:26] to the Middle Ages.

[01:55:28] Okay.

[01:55:28] Yeah.

[01:55:28] The belief in an imminent reign of Antichrist led many to identify contemporary rulers

[01:55:36] or figures as his forerunners.

[01:55:39] So, now like every evil ruler is an Antichrist.

[01:55:43] Okay?

[01:55:44] Got it.

[01:55:44] So, we moved away from someday there's going to be an Antichrist to, you know what?

[01:55:51] Every fucker is a fucking Antichrist.

[01:55:54] Got it.

[01:55:55] Would I kind of like agree with?

[01:55:57] I think that's kind of cool.

[01:55:59] Yeah.

[01:55:59] I like walking around saying, you're an Antichrist, you're an Antichrist.

[01:56:03] But the list is probably different between, you know, the right leaning, you know, Christians

[01:56:08] and left leaning Christians, right?

[01:56:10] Oh yeah, definitely.

[01:56:11] Wait till I get to the modern times ones.

[01:56:13] Right.

[01:56:13] Yeah.

[01:56:13] Yeah.

[01:56:13] That's fun.

[01:56:16] Okay.

[01:56:19] So, Antichrist led many to identify contemporary rulers or figures as his forerunners or even

[01:56:25] as Antichrist himself.

[01:56:27] So, sometimes they were like, no, no, this is the Antichrist.

[01:56:31] Okay.

[01:56:31] Okay.

[01:56:32] The Antipapal, Papal, Papal, Papal, Papal, Papal, Papal, Anti-Papal Emperor, and Anti-Papal

[01:56:39] is in quotes.

[01:56:40] So, that's like, we're not calling him Anti-Papal, but he was represented as such.

[01:56:45] Emperor Frederick II, who reigned from 1212 to 1250, and then Pope John XXII, who reigned

[01:56:56] from 1316 to 1334, who persecuted dissenters.

[01:57:01] These were notable examples of leaders who were called in the Middle Ages, they were referred

[01:57:07] to as Antichristes.

[01:57:09] Okay.

[01:57:09] Okay.

[01:57:09] All right.

[01:57:10] And I just coined that term, Antichristes, because if you can say octopuses or octopi

[01:57:18] or octopods, I think that you can say Christes and Antichristes.

[01:57:23] There you go.

[01:57:23] Yeah.

[01:57:24] I'm with you there.

[01:57:25] Okay.

[01:57:25] Yeah.

[01:57:26] So, this tendency to equate hated figures with Antichrist persisted beyond the medieval

[01:57:33] period.

[01:57:33] A group called the Russian Old Believers labeled Tsar Peter the Great as Antichrist due to

[01:57:40] his reforms and subjugation of the church.

[01:57:43] I just really like the acronym for that group, ROB.

[01:57:45] ROB.

[01:57:46] Yeah.

[01:57:47] Russian Old Believers.

[01:57:48] Yeah.

[01:57:49] Russian Old Believers.

[01:57:52] Like, I was thinking, you know, people with banjos, Russian Old Believers.

[01:57:57] Yeah.

[01:57:57] I don't know.

[01:57:59] The Reformation introduced significant shifts in the interpretation of Antichrist.

[01:58:05] Okay.

[01:58:05] Martin Luther, you know, the guy with his hundred theses or 99 theses.

[01:58:09] Yeah.

[01:58:10] That he, you know, used knives to pop up on the wall.

[01:58:12] Right.

[01:58:12] On the door.

[01:58:13] Was it 99?

[01:58:15] Yeah.

[01:58:15] It was a bunch, but I'm pretty sure it was 99.

[01:58:18] Yeah.

[01:58:18] He had 99 theses.

[01:58:20] And he was basically his overall message was, I don't think that people should be able

[01:58:28] to buy favors to get into heaven.

[01:58:30] I don't think that's what the Bible says.

[01:58:33] I don't think that's how it works.

[01:58:35] Like that was his overall message.

[01:58:36] Got it.

[01:58:37] Got it.

[01:58:38] Um, so Martin Luther popularized the view that Antichrist was not an individual, but a collective

[01:58:45] force of evil epitomized by the institution of the papacy.

[01:58:49] This perspective gained traction, particularly among Protestants, you know, because that's

[01:58:56] what came after.

[01:58:57] He was like, I think you guys are reading this right.

[01:59:00] Just real quick.

[01:59:00] That was 95 theses.

[01:59:02] 95.

[01:59:02] Damn it.

[01:59:03] Yeah.

[01:59:03] I knew it was 90 something.

[01:59:05] Sorry.

[01:59:05] I was only four off.

[01:59:07] I just didn't trust you.

[01:59:08] So I had to look that one up.

[01:59:09] So I apologize.

[01:59:10] But yeah, you were close.

[01:59:11] You were very close.

[01:59:12] I was closer than you were.

[01:59:14] Yeah.

[01:59:14] I mean, yeah.

[01:59:15] Yeah.

[01:59:15] I'm impressed that you were within five.

[01:59:17] I was within four.

[01:59:19] I know.

[01:59:19] Yeah.

[01:59:20] You were at four.

[01:59:21] You were within five.

[01:59:22] Okay.

[01:59:22] Fair.

[01:59:23] Fair.

[01:59:24] Fair.

[01:59:24] And I'm not good with numbers.

[01:59:26] So I mean, that's kind of amazing.

[01:59:28] That's why I was impressed.

[01:59:28] Yeah.

[01:59:29] Um, yeah.

[01:59:30] So particularly among Protestants and this, so this marked a departure from the earlier focus

[01:59:36] on a single adversary.

[01:59:38] Okay.

[01:59:38] So we're, um, going just totally away from that now.

[01:59:43] Yeah.

[01:59:43] And we'll never go back.

[01:59:45] Right.

[01:59:45] Ever again.

[01:59:46] Okay.

[01:59:46] Meanwhile, Roman Catholic teachings increasingly emphasize the spiritual deception associated

[01:59:53] with Antichrist.

[01:59:55] Okay.

[01:59:55] Um, framing him as one who claims to fulfill messianic hopes while glorifying humanity over

[02:00:01] God.

[02:00:02] Where are these ideas coming from?

[02:00:03] They're not coming directly from the Bible.

[02:00:05] They're coming from like religious teachings or religious, like, um, some of it is in the

[02:00:10] Bible and some of it is just these religious dudes that sit around a table and decide what

[02:00:15] they think it means.

[02:00:16] Okay.

[02:00:17] And then the more that they like pat each other on the back for good thought, good thought,

[02:00:21] yes, yes.

[02:00:22] Right.

[02:00:23] Um, the more it just kind of gets talked into that is the way it happened.

[02:00:27] That is what it means.

[02:00:29] Okay.

[02:00:30] You know what I mean?

[02:00:30] Yeah.

[02:00:31] So the church linked this deception to millenni millennarianism.

[02:00:38] Okay.

[02:00:39] You know, end of the millennium.

[02:00:41] Sure.

[02:00:41] What we're getting at.

[02:00:42] Right.

[02:00:42] And secular messianic ideologies.

[02:00:45] Okay.

[02:00:46] Okay.

[02:00:46] Secular messianic ideologies.

[02:00:48] That's a very interesting term.

[02:00:51] Got it.

[02:00:51] Because that means that a lack of belief in God or not necessarily a lack of belief so much

[02:01:01] as a lack of worship, a lack of activity that is churchy related.

[02:01:08] Sure.

[02:01:08] But they still have ideologies of a Messiah.

[02:01:12] Okay.

[02:01:13] Okay.

[02:01:13] Right.

[02:01:14] Okay.

[02:01:14] That's very weird.

[02:01:16] What's I go for?

[02:01:18] No, I was listening.

[02:01:20] Yeah.

[02:01:20] I just, why is it weird though?

[02:01:22] Secular messianic ideologies.

[02:01:25] Secular makes me think non-religious.

[02:01:27] Okay.

[02:01:28] And that's fair.

[02:01:29] But I, but, so I think what that's referring to is like the, okay, I, what I would take it

[02:01:35] out as the non-churched Christians.

[02:01:37] Right.

[02:01:37] Okay.

[02:01:38] Like the, I mean, specifically like my mom, right?

[02:01:40] Okay.

[02:01:41] Like my mom does not ascribe to a certain church or anything like that.

[02:01:44] She just believes in God.

[02:01:46] Right.

[02:01:47] And that would be, you know, it's not, they're not worshiping correctly.

[02:01:51] They're not worshiping within the confines of what it is to be religious or Christian or

[02:01:56] Catholic or whatever it is.

[02:01:57] Okay.

[02:01:58] So that's how I would take it.

[02:02:00] All right.

[02:02:00] I just, I don't know.

[02:02:01] I just thought it was like a really interesting mix of words.

[02:02:04] Sure.

[02:02:05] Juxtaposed against each other.

[02:02:06] Right.

[02:02:07] Right.

[02:02:07] Yeah.

[02:02:08] I mean, I guess, you know, secular can mean, I don't know.

[02:02:12] I mean, maybe it's, maybe it's just encompassing that whole idea of non, non, non practicing

[02:02:19] religious.

[02:02:19] Yeah.

[02:02:20] Okay.

[02:02:20] So religious non practicing.

[02:02:22] Right.

[02:02:23] Okay.

[02:02:23] So in the modern era, the antichrist tradition diversified further.

[02:02:29] Protestant interpretations often conceive of antichrist as any force opposing Christ's

[02:02:35] teachings.

[02:02:37] Though some evangelical and fundamentalist Christians revive the idea of a singular antichrist

[02:02:43] figure in the 20th century.

[02:02:45] So, you know, the 1900s.

[02:02:46] It's a lot sexier to have just one, you know, the big bad.

[02:02:49] Yeah.

[02:02:49] Yeah.

[02:02:50] I mean, every TV show has, you know, you fight the minions all the way up till you reach

[02:02:55] the end and that's where you fight the big bad.

[02:02:58] Yeah.

[02:02:59] Roman Catholics have become less inclined to emphasize a specific individual focusing instead

[02:03:06] on broader spiritual and institutional evils.

[02:03:10] Interesting.

[02:03:10] Yeah.

[02:03:11] Yeah.

[02:03:11] Considering that they really do need to concentrate on their institutional evils.

[02:03:16] Right.

[02:03:16] Yeah.

[02:03:17] So, Joachim of Fiore's concept of a succession of antichrists resonates in contemporary views

[02:03:26] of history as cyclical or progressive while the dual conceptions of spiritual and sensual antichrist

[02:03:33] persist among rational believers.

[02:03:36] Okay.

[02:03:36] Figures such as Benito Mussolini have been labeled as antichrist for their authoritarian ambitions

[02:03:42] echoing medieval tendencies.

[02:03:45] Yeah.

[02:03:46] Okay.

[02:03:46] Which makes sense.

[02:03:47] Right.

[02:03:47] In popular culture, vestiges of medieval antichrist traditions appear in films like Rosemary's

[02:03:53] Baby.

[02:03:54] A film came out in 1968.

[02:03:57] Okay.

[02:03:58] I was not born until 75.

[02:03:59] I didn't realize that movie was so old.

[02:04:02] And The Omen, which came out in 76 and apparently there was a reboot in 06.

[02:04:07] I had no idea.

[02:04:08] I think I vaguely remember something like that.

[02:04:11] Yeah.

[02:04:11] I don't know.

[02:04:12] That kid was creepy though.

[02:04:13] Like I never saw the first one.

[02:04:15] Yeah.

[02:04:15] Or am I thinking of Damien?

[02:04:17] I have no idea what you're talking about.

[02:04:18] Okay.

[02:04:18] I don't know if Damien is the name of the kid in The Omen or if Damien is like a separate

[02:04:23] franchise, but that kid was creepy.

[02:04:27] Okay.

[02:04:28] So anyway, these films represent an antichrist who is depicted as an apocalyptic individual.

[02:04:35] Similarly, superstitions about credit cards and barcodes.

[02:04:39] I have heard the marks of the beast and stuff like that.

[02:04:42] Yeah.

[02:04:43] As marks of antichrist.

[02:04:44] Right.

[02:04:45] The number 666 from Revelation or sometimes at 616 depending.

[02:04:50] Yeah.

[02:04:51] Those reflect anxieties about diabolical institutions in modern society.

[02:04:56] Got it.

[02:04:57] Scholars such as Bernard McGinn have examined theological debates about the relationship between antichrist

[02:05:05] and Satan.

[02:05:06] Hmm.

[02:05:06] Hmm.

[02:05:07] You know, the bad up here and the bad down below.

[02:05:11] Right.

[02:05:12] I just want to interject real quick here.

[02:05:14] Hmm.

[02:05:15] So, another help from our live discord.

[02:05:18] Hmm.

[02:05:19] Hmm.

[02:05:19] Hmm.

[02:05:26] Hmm.

[02:05:28] You can have a belief, but...

[02:05:28] You can have a belief.

[02:05:29] You just aren't devoted to it by going to the functions and things like that.

[02:05:33] So, that's kind of what we said.

[02:05:34] The non-practicing believer.

[02:05:36] Right.

[02:05:37] Okay.

[02:05:37] Cool, cool, cool.

[02:05:38] So, we weren't far off.

[02:05:39] Right.

[02:05:40] Interesting.

[02:05:41] So, okay.

[02:05:42] Scholars such as Bernard McGinn have examined theological debates about the relationship

[02:05:46] between antichrist and Satan.

[02:05:48] The indwelling theory wherein the antichrist is a human inhabited by Satan.

[02:05:54] Right.

[02:05:54] Like possessed, you know.

[02:05:56] Yeah.

[02:05:56] Gained a lot of traction for avoiding the dualistic implications of Satan becoming incarnate.

[02:06:03] Hmm.

[02:06:04] Because, you know, that would mean he's undefeatable.

[02:06:07] Yeah, I really feel like the church is missing out on some marketability here with like, you

[02:06:12] know, in-time revelation type comic book series that they could put out.

[02:06:17] Comic books, movies, novels.

[02:06:20] Yeah, like you could make...

[02:06:21] I mean, this is some good shit, right?

[02:06:22] Like, you could really turn this into a whole franchise.

[02:06:25] I mean, think about...

[02:06:25] It might even rival like Marvel, you know?

[02:06:27] Right.

[02:06:28] And like, we have talked about the way Hell, Michigan is like just this little street.

[02:06:34] Right, right.

[02:06:35] Like, it's not even an actual town.

[02:06:36] It's just a little fucking street corner.

[02:06:38] Yeah.

[02:06:38] And it has its own little zip code.

[02:06:40] And how they are totally missing out on all of the possibilities.

[02:06:45] Right.

[02:06:45] It's so stupid to see like, oh, you're doing this wrong.

[02:06:50] Yeah.

[02:06:51] Yeah.

[02:06:51] So, this whole like, Satan is not an actual thing.

[02:06:58] He's more like a demon that inhabits your body that gets rid of the possibility of him

[02:07:03] being incarnate, which, you know, he is a physical thing that can be beat.

[02:07:10] Okay.

[02:07:11] Yeah.

[02:07:11] So, yay!

[02:07:12] We can...

[02:07:13] God can kill Satan.

[02:07:14] That's exciting.

[02:07:16] Otherwise, you know, he'd be too powerful.

[02:07:17] Okay?

[02:07:18] But God can create an entire universe.

[02:07:21] Why?

[02:07:21] Why is it true?

[02:07:23] God, hypothetically maybe created Satan.

[02:07:26] Well...

[02:07:27] And by that measure, no matter who the Antichrist is, God would have created that Antichrist,

[02:07:33] right?

[02:07:34] Well, no, we're not specifically talking about Antichrist now.

[02:07:37] We're talking about Satan here for a minute.

[02:07:38] I'm just, I'm taking the whole thing into account here and I'm like, but God made everything

[02:07:43] according to them.

[02:07:44] So, if God made everything, he made all this shit too.

[02:07:47] But did he though?

[02:07:48] I don't know.

[02:07:49] No, obviously we don't believe he made shit, but...

[02:07:51] That's the question that these guys are, they're just like, they're talking it out.

[02:07:55] You know?

[02:07:55] They're like, yeah, but I mean...

[02:07:57] Oh, okay.

[02:07:58] It's two kids sitting in the back of the car.

[02:08:02] Mom is driving them somewhere and she's got to hit the grocery store first, right?

[02:08:08] So, they're sitting in the back of the car and they're arguing who's better, who's stronger,

[02:08:14] Superman or Captain America, right?

[02:08:17] And it's DC versus Marvel and they're just talking it out and they both believe very firmly

[02:08:23] in their theories, okay?

[02:08:24] Look, I really like Captain America.

[02:08:26] I think he's a great guy, but Superman has laser eyes.

[02:08:29] I'm just saying, and he can fly and turn back time.

[02:08:31] I mean, come on.

[02:08:32] I don't, I don't like his beginnings is.

[02:08:35] I'm not, I'm not talking, we're just talking about strength here.

[02:08:38] I'm just saying, Superman.

[02:08:39] Okay.

[02:08:39] Superman all the way.

[02:08:40] Yeah, but it's my understanding that he was created on like an anti-Semitic kind

[02:08:46] of beginning.

[02:08:46] Well, okay, yeah.

[02:08:48] I've heard that somewhat somewhere before, I guess too.

[02:08:51] From me.

[02:08:51] Yeah, from you.

[02:08:52] So, I'm just saying...

[02:08:53] But okay, but we're just talking about strength of what they were built on.

[02:08:56] That's all.

[02:08:57] Right.

[02:08:57] Sorry, I...

[02:08:58] Here's my thing.

[02:09:00] Back before I knew, like when I was in my younger, first tiptoeing into comics, before I

[02:09:05] knew that there was a whole DC versus Marvel thing.

[02:09:08] Yeah.

[02:09:08] I tended to lean more toward the Marvel characters, except for Batman, because I really loved how

[02:09:19] dark and depressed he was.

[02:09:20] Like it appealed to my soul.

[02:09:22] Yeah.

[02:09:22] Except that like, vigilantism, is that really what we want?

[02:09:25] Mm-mm.

[02:09:26] So, but then when I got better experience with comics, I started to realize that they're

[02:09:32] both shit and that there is some really good indie stuff out there.

[02:09:36] Yeah.

[02:09:36] So, like image comics and top cow and you know, stuff like that.

[02:09:42] Those are so great.

[02:09:44] Yeah.

[02:09:44] That's...

[02:09:45] You have no idea what I'm talking about.

[02:09:47] Yeah.

[02:09:47] Okay.

[02:09:48] So, anyway, so these guys are like, no, Satan is totally strong and he's a badass.

[02:09:54] And then the other kid is like, nuh-uh.

[02:09:57] And no, cause God could totally beat him.

[02:09:59] He rolled a...

[02:10:00] He rolled his D6 and he got a...

[02:10:03] I don't know, whatever you...

[02:10:05] I just...

[02:10:05] I can't...

[02:10:06] They're playing Dungeons and Dragons and shit.

[02:10:09] You...

[02:10:09] You...

[02:10:10] You...

[02:10:11] Stop.

[02:10:12] No, it's just...

[02:10:13] It's...

[02:10:13] You could go down this rabbit hole all day.

[02:10:16] See, but you are trying to walk into these kids' discussion and they're like, stop.

[02:10:23] You don't know.

[02:10:24] Go away.

[02:10:25] You're ruining our argument.

[02:10:27] But that's what I'm saying though.

[02:10:28] Exactly.

[02:10:29] Right?

[02:10:29] We have Christians taking this anti-Christ stuff seriously.

[02:10:33] Mm-hmm.

[02:10:33] We have Christians that are full in on the belief that these things are real and then they

[02:10:38] attribute them to people they don't like.

[02:10:41] You just need Jesus.

[02:10:42] And so therefore, it's a little bit dangerous, right?

[02:10:44] If you just had Jesus.

[02:10:45] But the truth is, if you believe in God to begin with, you have to like go all the way

[02:10:52] with that, don't you?

[02:10:53] Like why don't people take this out?

[02:10:55] Why don't they believe it all the way?

[02:10:57] I don't know.

[02:10:57] Like they only believe chunks of it.

[02:10:59] They're like, I believe that God is all-powerful and created every fucking thing, but he also

[02:11:04] created this bad guy over here who I really fucking hate and he doesn't do anything

[02:11:07] about it.

[02:11:07] Like what the fuck is that?

[02:11:10] That makes no goddamn sense.

[02:11:11] It's to build character.

[02:11:13] Fuck that bullshit.

[02:11:13] And also there's a greater purpose.

[02:11:15] You don't know all the things.

[02:11:18] You just have to always just be accepting and it's how you reach your Zen.

[02:11:23] You just go, um...

[02:11:25] It's just like, all I'm saying is that with regard to religion and God and the anti-Christ

[02:11:32] and the beliefs that people have in these gods and these ideas, it's like you're hearing

[02:11:40] conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory, only they are accepted by such a large swath of

[02:11:47] people that it's absurd and disheartening.

[02:11:51] It's hard for me to get into religion at all because this is the stuff I would want to learn

[02:11:57] about.

[02:11:57] Like, if I'm going to go in and believe in religion, okay, well, I want to know all the things

[02:12:03] then.

[02:12:03] Right?

[02:12:03] Like, okay, God and Satan and anti-Christ and Jesus and Mary.

[02:12:08] Yeah, explain it to me.

[02:12:09] How does it work?

[02:12:09] You know, she was a virgin?

[02:12:12] How did that work?

[02:12:13] Well, did God fuck her?

[02:12:15] Like, I want to know.

[02:12:16] You know, like I want to know all the things.

[02:12:18] Yeah, but there's nobody out there that...

[02:12:19] Like, I've never heard of a Christian pastor who would literally sit there and entertain

[02:12:23] the real questions that...

[02:12:25] Look, I'm sure that that person exists.

[02:12:27] Yes, but in a general...

[02:12:29] Like, if you're going to a church in your local area, that pastor's not going to sit

[02:12:33] down with you and answer all those fucking questions.

[02:12:34] No, he'll be offended that I even thought it.

[02:12:36] Right.

[02:12:37] Yeah.

[02:12:37] So, it's like a Tupperware bowl and like Christians are okay just popping up the corner every

[02:12:43] now and again and sniffing it, whereas I want to tear the fucking lid off.

[02:12:46] Yeah.

[02:12:46] And I want to stick my hands into the gobbledygook inside.

[02:12:50] Right.

[02:12:50] You know, just dirty it up.

[02:12:52] I want to know all the innards.

[02:12:53] Right.

[02:12:54] Okay.

[02:12:54] So, this nuanced view has theological implications for understanding the nature of evil in Christian

[02:13:02] eschatology.

[02:13:04] Okay.

[02:13:04] Yeah.

[02:13:05] So, it allowed them to like be like, it's totally evil.

[02:13:09] He's a bad.

[02:13:10] He's a baddie bad.

[02:13:11] Sure.

[02:13:11] Okay.

[02:13:12] Yeah.

[02:13:12] Finally, parallels exist between Christian antichrist doctrines and Jewish eschatological

[02:13:19] figures like Armalus.

[02:13:21] Armalus?

[02:13:22] Who the fuck is Armalus?

[02:13:23] I don't know.

[02:13:24] The anti-Masaya described in texts such as the Sefer Zerababel.

[02:13:30] What?

[02:13:31] Did you just start speaking in tongues?

[02:13:33] What the fuck happened there?

[02:13:35] Sefer Zerababel.

[02:13:37] Okay.

[02:13:37] Okay.

[02:13:37] So, this guy, Armalus, often seen as an allegory, almost said allergy, Jesus Christ, often

[02:13:44] seen as an allegory for oppressive forces, symbolizes the ultimate triumph of good over

[02:13:51] evil, a theme that unites both Christian and Jewish traditions.

[02:13:55] Okay.

[02:13:56] So, they have like this anti-Masaya.

[02:13:59] And, you know, the Christians have anti-Christ.

[02:14:03] Sure.

[02:14:03] So, they're like twinsies.

[02:14:05] You know, I'm just gonna be fair here.

[02:14:07] If I view someone as evil, I'm happy when the good triumphs over the evil as well.

[02:14:12] But, you know what?

[02:14:14] I mean, it's never really that simple.

[02:14:15] But, I mean, I, generally speaking, I'm happy that Hitler got beat.

[02:14:19] Yeah.

[02:14:20] I'm just saying.

[02:14:21] Okay.

[02:14:21] But, when we've got the anti-Masaya in Jewish and we've got the anti-Christ in Christian,

[02:14:26] that to me feels like the ultimate Marvel DC crossover event of the millennium.

[02:14:33] Okay.

[02:14:35] And, these two boys, they are skipping down the road together.

[02:14:39] They're holding hands and there are rainbows everywhere.

[02:14:43] And, they're like so excited because, you know, they're meeting for the first time, but

[02:14:48] also they've known each other forever.

[02:14:50] Yeah.

[02:14:51] Right.

[02:14:52] This is like a very special moment for them.

[02:14:54] I see.

[02:14:54] Okay.

[02:14:55] And, also they braid each other's hair just because that's fun.

[02:14:58] Okay.

[02:14:58] Got it.

[02:14:59] All right.

[02:14:59] So, many prominent figures from 1950 to the present day have been labeled as the

[02:15:05] anti-Christ by individuals or groups.

[02:15:08] 1950s.

[02:15:09] I kind of associate that with McCarthyism and the whole communist scare thing.

[02:15:13] Don't you?

[02:15:13] Yeah.

[02:15:15] Often due to their political influence, ideological positions, or global reach.

[02:15:21] Some examples include, are you ready?

[02:15:23] I'm ready.

[02:15:23] Okay.

[02:15:24] So, here's some politicians and world leaders.

[02:15:27] Okay.

[02:15:27] John F. Kennedy.

[02:15:29] Yeah.

[02:15:30] As the first Catholic U.S. president, some fundamentalists speculated he was the anti-Christ

[02:15:35] due to fears of Vatican influence on American politics.

[02:15:40] Oh, not that.

[02:15:40] Right?

[02:15:41] Then, Ronald Reagan.

[02:15:43] Wow.

[02:15:43] Conspiracy theorists pointed out that his full name, Ronald Wilson Reagan, contains six

[02:15:50] letters in each name, 666.

[02:15:53] Oh, dang.

[02:15:54] Wow.

[02:15:54] This, combined with his popularity, led some to suggest he was the anti-Christ.

[02:16:00] Wow.

[02:16:00] Interesting.

[02:16:02] Barack Obama.

[02:16:02] That was to be expected.

[02:16:04] Because, you know...

[02:16:04] Many conservative Christians.

[02:16:06] Like, I like how the other two are just like, yeah, conspiracy theorists.

[02:16:10] And, yeah, he's the first Catholic.

[02:16:11] Blah, blah, blah.

[02:16:12] And you know how it is.

[02:16:13] Like, blah, blah, blah.

[02:16:14] And then we get to Barack Obama.

[02:16:15] And, like, why don't you just say racist?

[02:16:18] Right.

[02:16:18] Many conservative Christians, many racists, accused Obama of being the anti-Christ during

[02:16:24] his presidency, citing his charisma.

[02:16:27] God damn you for that!

[02:16:29] We can't have charisma up in this bitch!

[02:16:31] Global appeal.

[02:16:32] God, you know when people like him.

[02:16:35] Damn it!

[02:16:36] And policies they viewed as unchristian.

[02:16:38] You know, things like universal healthcare?

[02:16:41] How dare!

[02:16:42] The very audacity!

[02:16:44] Right.

[02:16:45] Okay.

[02:16:45] Yeah, what a fuck face.

[02:16:47] Hope and change.

[02:16:48] I hate that fuck face.

[02:16:50] Like, wow!

[02:16:51] He was such a bad, terrible dude.

[02:16:53] Uh-huh.

[02:16:54] That was all sarcasm, just to be clear.

[02:16:57] Blah, blah, blah.

[02:16:57] I know, but just in case there's a noob, I have to say, I love Obama.

[02:17:02] Okay?

[02:17:03] All right.

[02:17:04] Donald Trump.

[02:17:06] Yeah.

[02:17:06] That was obvious.

[02:17:08] Right?

[02:17:09] I'm gonna stop you for just a moment.

[02:17:11] Mm-hmm.

[02:17:11] Mm-hmm.

[02:17:12] Because if I were to associate a single human being that I've ever known in my entire life,

[02:17:17] Mm-hmm.

[02:17:17] As embodying the characteristics that I am aware of, of the Antichrist, it would be Donald Trump.

[02:17:23] Exactly!

[02:17:24] And I would say that whether or not he was president or not.

[02:17:27] Right?

[02:17:28] It's him being president is what brought him to our attention as being such.

[02:17:33] Right.

[02:17:33] You know?

[02:17:34] Like, I didn't go looking for him.

[02:17:35] Well, and the power kind of gives him that status of the Antichrist, right?

[02:17:38] Yeah.

[02:17:38] So, like, I guess part of it is him being president.

[02:17:42] But, like, he's just the...

[02:17:44] He doesn't even try because he doesn't have to.

[02:17:47] I just can't figure out why Christians like him.

[02:17:49] Like, I'm like, this dude is like nothing.

[02:17:51] He's so bad.

[02:17:52] You would have kicked him out of your goddamn church.

[02:17:55] Right?

[02:17:55] He's so disgusting.

[02:17:56] Not that he would have ever showed up in the first place, but, you know...

[02:17:58] He's gross.

[02:17:59] Yeah.

[02:17:59] He's so gross.

[02:18:00] But they're...

[02:18:01] The ones who embrace him, they're excited because they're about to go to heaven.

[02:18:04] So, you know, they love it.

[02:18:06] Yeah.

[02:18:07] They love him.

[02:18:07] Because end times is going to be fun.

[02:18:08] It's so exciting for them.

[02:18:10] They love it.

[02:18:10] There's going to be, like, rainbow slides with lollipops on the way and, like...

[02:18:14] Well, no, that's not what they're excited about.

[02:18:16] You're missing it.

[02:18:17] They're excited about the hail and brimstone and bricks and fire and mortar that's going

[02:18:24] to fall on us.

[02:18:24] But I didn't even get to the cotton candy cupcakes yet.

[02:18:27] Okay.

[02:18:28] Well, they're going to be sitting on the side with their lollipops and candy cupcakes.

[02:18:33] Okay?

[02:18:33] Cotton candy cupcakes.

[02:18:34] Cotton candy cupcakes.

[02:18:35] I'm sorry.

[02:18:36] I'm sorry.

[02:18:36] Having just slid down a rainbow and then they, too, are holding hands and skipping and braving

[02:18:41] each other's hair.

[02:18:42] Right, yeah, yeah.

[02:18:42] And then they turn and they watch us and we are in pain, writhing on the ground for eternity,

[02:18:48] being punished, and they are laughing and happy, gleeful.

[02:18:53] That's what this is about.

[02:18:55] Right.

[02:18:55] They are very excited to be inflicting pain on other people.

[02:19:00] It must be in times because that's what I get on Twitter.

[02:19:02] Mm-hmm.

[02:19:03] Yeah.

[02:19:04] Yeah.

[02:19:04] In fact, I just got one today.

[02:19:06] It was, it was like burning hell and like, I'm like, and it was a whole meme and like,

[02:19:11] I'm like, well, Jesus Christ.

[02:19:13] Right?

[02:19:14] You guys are fucking messed up.

[02:19:15] Like, I thought you wanted to save my soul.

[02:19:17] And they're like, your soul ain't worth saving.

[02:19:19] It's always in all caps, too.

[02:19:20] Yeah.

[02:19:21] Always.

[02:19:21] Yeah.

[02:19:22] Because it's old people that don't know how to do.

[02:19:25] So, okay, Donald Trump.

[02:19:26] While some of his evangelical supporters saw him, see him as a divinely chosen figure.

[02:19:32] And those are the ones that we're talking about.

[02:19:34] It's just weird.

[02:19:34] Others see his divisive rhetoric and focus on power as potential antichrist traits.

[02:19:41] Which is interesting because that's not the left specifically that they're referring to that think of him as an antichrist.

[02:19:49] Right?

[02:19:49] Because not everybody on the left is a church going Christian person.

[02:19:55] Right?

[02:19:56] Sure.

[02:19:56] So they're not saying that like, the left thinks this.

[02:19:59] What they're saying is, some Christians see him as a divinely chosen figure and other Christians see him as an antichrist.

[02:20:08] Well, I've even heard this entertained to where some people on the right think that he might be the antichrist and embrace it because they're like, that means it's in times.

[02:20:17] Yeah.

[02:20:18] Which goes back to what we were just saying.

[02:20:20] I'm like, what the fucking hell?

[02:20:21] Yeah.

[02:20:21] Oh, but what I've also seen a lot of is, he's not perfect, but none of us are.

[02:20:26] And he's the perfect person for this job.

[02:20:29] And I'm like, you would never be so forgiving of me.

[02:20:34] Right.

[02:20:35] And it hurts my feelings, like personally, because I'm like, the guilt that I am expected to have over some of the choices I've made in my life or some of the events that I've endured.

[02:20:46] And to know that you would forgive him, but not me.

[02:20:52] Right.

[02:20:53] Why?

[02:20:53] What did he ever do?

[02:20:55] Like, I don't.

[02:20:56] And then, yeah, yeah, I know I shouldn't.

[02:20:59] I shouldn't be wanting forgiveness from these people.

[02:21:02] Like, that's a me problem.

[02:21:03] Right.

[02:21:03] Right.

[02:21:04] But no, actually, it's it's a world problem.

[02:21:08] Look at who they are willing to forgive versus who they aren't.

[02:21:12] Well, and this is this is I we're delving in a little bit of politics here.

[02:21:16] But I mean, the truth is that religion and the right wing politics and the right wing media have essentially narrowed down what Republicans and Christians care about to about two to three issues.

[02:21:32] Right.

[02:21:32] And so these these people that are on the right that are politicians only have to be strongly adamant about two to three ideas to win the support of their followers.

[02:21:45] And the rest of it doesn't fucking matter.

[02:21:47] No, the rest of it is just whatever.

[02:21:50] Right.

[02:21:50] And they don't care.

[02:21:52] Right.

[02:21:53] They've been told these things are so important.

[02:21:56] You would vote a piece of shit in office in order to get them accomplished guns, God and anti-abortion.

[02:22:02] Right.

[02:22:02] That's all they care about.

[02:22:03] Right.

[02:22:03] Nothing else.

[02:22:04] As long as those three things are covered.

[02:22:06] Yep.

[02:22:07] You're good.

[02:22:07] Yeah.

[02:22:08] Why not?

[02:22:09] It's the easy way to go.

[02:22:10] Even if the God part is done by somebody who's not godly doesn't doesn't really matter.

[02:22:14] No.

[02:22:15] To them.

[02:22:15] No.

[02:22:16] I mean, he can get up there and hold the Bible upside down, but it doesn't matter because he's still pushing God like it doesn't matter.

[02:22:22] He's still he may be doing a bad job, but he's still putting the word of God out there.

[02:22:28] Yeah.

[02:22:28] And that's more than any other president.

[02:22:29] And as like, I've literally heard people say this.

[02:22:31] Yeah.

[02:22:32] Yeah.

[02:22:32] So, Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis, various Protestant groups have accused modern popes, the two that I just mentioned, of being the Antichrist due to their roles in the Catholic Church, which some view as a quote Babylonian institution tied to revelation.

[02:22:52] Hmm.

[02:22:53] The book thereof, you know?

[02:22:54] Okay.

[02:22:55] All right.

[02:22:55] Pope Francis in particular has been targeted for his quote unquote progressive stances on issues like climate change and LGBTQIA plus inclusion.

[02:23:07] Did God weigh in on climate change?

[02:23:10] Does that matter in the grand scheme of like religion?

[02:23:13] No, but actually he kind of did in that he did charge man through Adam, take care of this shit.

[02:23:22] Right.

[02:23:23] Which would indicate to me that you, you know, should take care of it.

[02:23:27] But Christians since then have said, Oh, we're just passing through.

[02:23:32] Right.

[02:23:33] I'm on my way to somewhere better.

[02:23:35] I can dirty this shit up.

[02:23:36] I don't fucking care.

[02:23:38] Right.

[02:23:39] I'm on my way.

[02:23:40] Right.

[02:23:41] It doesn't matter.

[02:23:43] Earthquake.

[02:23:44] I'm going to heaven.

[02:23:45] Either God's going to save me or, or I'm going to die and God's going to take me to heaven.

[02:23:53] Right.

[02:23:53] It's fine.

[02:23:54] Either way.

[02:23:54] Yeah.

[02:23:55] I'm, I'm at peace with it.

[02:23:57] So let's talk about some cultural figures that have been accused of being the antichrist.

[02:24:02] Ready?

[02:24:03] Jane Fonda.

[02:24:04] She's not on my list.

[02:24:05] Really?

[02:24:06] I'm sure.

[02:24:07] Was it Henry?

[02:24:08] Yeah, whatever.

[02:24:10] Any font Fonda is bad, you know, for most people.

[02:24:12] So yeah, I just, I figured that was going to be one of them.

[02:24:15] Nope.

[02:24:16] The Beatles, especially John Lennon.

[02:24:19] Yeah.

[02:24:20] Yeah.

[02:24:20] The band's massive influence and Lennon's infamous comment that they were more popular

[02:24:27] than Jesus.

[02:24:28] Fueled claims of satanic connections and antichrist accusations.

[02:24:33] Yeah.

[02:24:34] Yeah.

[02:24:34] Okay.

[02:24:35] That's fun.

[02:24:35] Sure.

[02:24:36] Next one on my list is Bill Gates.

[02:24:38] Yeah.

[02:24:39] Right.

[02:24:39] Heard that one.

[02:24:40] Yeah.

[02:24:40] Conspiracy theories have linked Gates to the antichrist, particularly around the COVID-19

[02:24:46] pandemic, suggesting his advocacy for vaccines and global health is part of a sinister plot

[02:24:53] involving microchips and the mark of the beast.

[02:24:56] Yep.

[02:24:56] Definitely heard that one.

[02:24:57] Mm hmm.

[02:24:58] Elon Musk, which is another figure that is like tearing the Christian community in half.

[02:25:05] Right.

[02:25:06] Some have speculated that his focus on AI, space exploration and transhumanism aligns with fears

[02:25:14] about technological overreach and potential end times prophecy.

[02:25:19] Yeah.

[02:25:20] This fuckers.

[02:25:20] I mean, he's digging in some really crazy shit.

[02:25:23] Yeah.

[02:25:24] And and people were worried about fucking credit cards.

[02:25:27] Yeah.

[02:25:28] You know, 20 years ago.

[02:25:29] They were worried about Bill Gates today.

[02:25:31] Right.

[02:25:32] Yeah.

[02:25:32] Yeah.

[02:25:32] Right.

[02:25:32] Exactly.

[02:25:33] But Elon Musk can do no wrong.

[02:25:34] Yeah.

[02:25:35] Yeah.

[02:25:35] The the inability to see evenly is just astounding.

[02:25:42] It really is.

[02:25:43] So let's talk about some pop culture and conspiracy theories.

[02:25:48] Okay.

[02:25:48] Okay.

[02:25:49] Mikhail Gorbachev.

[02:25:51] Yeah.

[02:25:51] His birthmark, which some saw as resembling the mark of the beast and his role in dismantling

[02:25:57] the USSR led to suspicions of him being an antichrist.

[02:26:01] Mm hmm.

[02:26:02] Why?

[02:26:03] Because I just told you he had a scar that they thought resembled the mark of the beast.

[02:26:08] And he had a role in dismantling the USSR.

[02:26:11] That's like we I mean that we wanted that.

[02:26:15] But that was a good thing.

[02:26:17] But now we I don't know.

[02:26:19] Okay.

[02:26:20] I can't explain Christians.

[02:26:21] I'm done trying.

[02:26:22] Right.

[02:26:22] Yeah.

[02:26:23] Henry Kissinger.

[02:26:25] Is that who you're trying to think of?

[02:26:26] That fucker is the antichrist.

[02:26:29] His global influence as US Secretary of State made him a frequent target of Cold War era antichrist accusations.

[02:26:37] Yeah.

[02:26:38] No doubt.

[02:26:39] This one I hadn't heard.

[02:26:40] I find this one very interesting.

[02:26:42] Prince Charles now King Charles the third royal watchers.

[02:26:47] has linked his lineage and global presence to theories about him being the antichrist.

[02:26:51] Okay.

[02:26:52] I don't know if he's an antichrist but he sure is a pedo.

[02:26:55] Right.

[02:26:55] Yeah.

[02:26:56] And he nasty too.

[02:26:57] Right.

[02:26:57] And he's a lazy fuck.

[02:26:59] Yeah.

[02:27:00] I can't speak to that.

[02:27:01] I don't know anything about him.

[02:27:02] Not really.

[02:27:02] He's a little thing where he couldn't even pick up his own fucking pen.

[02:27:05] Ah.

[02:27:06] Like somebody had to like come twist the pen for him and dip it in the ink for him.

[02:27:12] Oh wow.

[02:27:12] Yeah.

[02:27:13] And he's like.

[02:27:15] That's that's some.

[02:27:16] Yeah.

[02:27:17] And yeah.

[02:27:17] And I read somebody like used to work in the palace or something.

[02:27:22] Yeah.

[02:27:22] And they did like this expose or something.

[02:27:25] Uh huh.

[02:27:26] And she was like.

[02:27:27] Yeah.

[02:27:28] Like you have to be available all night because you might have to run into his room to tuck

[02:27:36] him back in and bring him his teddy bear.

[02:27:40] Oh my God.

[02:27:41] Yeah.

[02:27:41] What.

[02:27:42] Right.

[02:27:43] Oh.

[02:27:44] England just needs to ditch that shit.

[02:27:45] But I'm just like okay P Diddy like you're the same.

[02:27:48] You have too much money.

[02:27:50] You know.

[02:27:50] Right.

[02:27:50] That's basically what it is.

[02:27:52] You have too much money.

[02:27:54] You are not accountable to anybody.

[02:27:56] And so you just like have these ludicrous demands of other people.

[02:28:00] Here's the thing.

[02:28:01] I feel like with the.

[02:28:02] This is my feelings on the English monarchy.

[02:28:04] Right.

[02:28:05] And that's that.

[02:28:06] It's kind of outlived its.

[02:28:09] Cuteness.

[02:28:09] Yeah.

[02:28:10] It's.

[02:28:11] It went from like.

[02:28:12] Uh.

[02:28:13] You know.

[02:28:14] It went from something that was like a drama.

[02:28:17] To now it's like desperate housewives.

[02:28:19] Yeah.

[02:28:20] Or something.

[02:28:20] You know.

[02:28:21] I mean it's just.

[02:28:21] It's.

[02:28:21] It's fucking nutty all the time.

[02:28:23] You should see the people in uh.

[02:28:26] The comments argue over whether um.

[02:28:30] Prince Harry and Meghan Markle.

[02:28:32] Yeah.

[02:28:33] Are good or bad.

[02:28:34] There's no in between.

[02:28:35] I just.

[02:28:36] I don't understand why anybody gives a fuck about any of that.

[02:28:38] I'm like.

[02:28:39] They're people who have money to live.

[02:28:42] However the fuck they want to because they were born that way.

[02:28:45] Well.

[02:28:45] Okay.

[02:28:46] So.

[02:28:46] Yay.

[02:28:46] The good.

[02:28:47] The people that say that they're good are like.

[02:28:49] They were trying to leave the monarchy and get out and all they asked for was.

[02:28:55] Um.

[02:28:56] Could we just have a security detail.

[02:28:58] Right.

[02:28:58] That's it.

[02:28:59] Yeah.

[02:29:00] Okay.

[02:29:00] Yeah.

[02:29:02] Yeah.

[02:29:06] Yeah.

[02:29:11] Yeah.

[02:29:16] Yeah.

[02:29:28] They're rich enough.

[02:29:29] Black.

[02:29:29] Right.

[02:29:30] Yeah.

[02:29:32] I think so.

[02:29:33] Like.

[02:29:33] I didn't even know she was black until they told me because she's so light skinned.

[02:29:37] And I was like y'all so thin skinned that like her her slight tan fucking like made you

[02:29:46] pee your pants.

[02:29:47] You were so mad about her slight tan.

[02:29:49] Like Jesus.

[02:29:50] Right.

[02:29:51] Man.

[02:29:52] Okay.

[02:29:52] Sorry.

[02:29:53] We're like.

[02:29:53] Antichrist.

[02:29:54] Yeah.

[02:29:54] All right.

[02:29:56] So here's some key trends in accusations.

[02:30:00] Okay.

[02:30:00] Yeah.

[02:30:00] These accusations often reflect cultural anxieties or political divides of the time.

[02:30:07] Sure.

[02:30:07] Figures with global influence particularly those who promote change or challenge the status

[02:30:14] quo are especially prone to being cast in the Antichrist role by conspiracy theorists.

[02:30:20] Of course.

[02:30:21] The idea of the Antichrist is deeply intertwined with Christian eschatology especially interpretation

[02:30:28] of the end days in the Bible.

[02:30:31] Yeah.

[02:30:32] Okay.

[02:30:32] Like the end is near and we have reached the end times.

[02:30:36] Right.

[02:30:37] You know all of those.

[02:30:37] The end is fucking not.

[02:30:39] I was going to say you said it wrong the first time.

[02:30:41] It's nigh.

[02:30:42] I'm here.

[02:30:43] Yeah.

[02:30:44] Why?

[02:30:44] The end is near.

[02:30:46] And the end is.

[02:30:47] I was just being funny.

[02:30:48] Okay.

[02:30:48] Okay.

[02:30:49] Sorry.

[02:30:49] Sorry.

[02:30:50] These ideas come primarily from passages in the book of Revelation, 2 Thessalonians,

[02:30:58] Daniel, and 1 John.

[02:31:00] Okay.

[02:31:01] Uh huh.

[02:31:01] While interpretations vary across denominations, many link the Antichrist with specific signs

[02:31:08] and events signaling these end times.

[02:31:11] Okay.

[02:31:11] Yeah.

[02:31:12] How the Antichrist fits into end times prophecies.

[02:31:15] Are you ready for this?

[02:31:16] I'm ready.

[02:31:16] It's so exciting.

[02:31:17] The Antichrist is often seen as a charismatic leader who deceives the world, opposes God,

[02:31:25] and establishes a global system of governance or worship in opposition to Christianity.

[02:31:32] Hmm.

[02:31:32] Hmm.

[02:31:34] I guess Trump, at least so far, has not stood in opposition to Christianity.

[02:31:39] Hmm.

[02:31:40] He has warped it some though, Hanny.

[02:31:42] Oh, he's definitely warped it.

[02:31:43] Hmm.

[02:31:43] But he hasn't stood in opposition of it.

[02:31:45] I would say the warping of it is in opposition of it.

[02:31:49] Okay.

[02:31:50] I think that it's an interesting twist because now the Christians are at war amongst themselves

[02:31:58] as to, you know, even more, what is the right type of Christianity?

[02:32:04] Right.

[02:32:04] Like, is that not thwarting?

[02:32:07] Yeah.

[02:32:08] Um, so according to the book of Revelation, this figure is associated with the beast who

[02:32:15] brings chaos, wars, and persecution of the faithful.

[02:32:18] Right.

[02:32:19] Some believe the Antichrist will enforce the mark of the beast 666, which controls commerce

[02:32:25] and allegiance to his rule.

[02:32:27] Okay.

[02:32:28] Yeah.

[02:32:29] Exciting stuff.

[02:32:29] Okay.

[02:32:30] So let's talk about biblical context.

[02:32:32] Ready?

[02:32:32] I'm ready.

[02:32:33] In 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 3 and 4, the Antichrist is described as the man of

[02:32:41] lawlessness who exalts himself above all gods and claims divinity.

[02:32:50] He hasn't quite got there.

[02:32:53] Not those words specifically, but his people have done it for him.

[02:32:57] Yeah.

[02:32:57] And he does not dispute it.

[02:33:00] Once he's in office, we'll see how it goes.

[02:33:02] He does exalt himself above all gods.

[02:33:05] He does.

[02:33:06] Well, we know that to be true probably.

[02:33:09] But yeah.

[02:33:09] Not in so many words.

[02:33:10] Right.

[02:33:11] But definitely...

[02:33:12] You can just tell.

[02:33:13] Yeah.

[02:33:13] Yeah.

[02:33:14] Revelation chapter 13 depicts a beast rising from the sea, empowered by Satan, deceiving

[02:33:21] nations, and demanding worship.

[02:33:24] Mm.

[02:33:25] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:25] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:25] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:26] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:26] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:32] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:34] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:39] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:43] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:51] Mm-hmm.

[02:33:55] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:10] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:11] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:12] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:12] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:38] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:40] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:49] Mm-hmm.

[02:34:52] Mm-hmm.

[02:35:05] Mm-hmm.

[02:35:18] Mm-hmm.

[02:35:20] Mm-hmm.

[02:35:23] It's like so hard.

[02:35:25] Yeah.

[02:35:26] Like, I don't...

[02:35:26] Okay.

[02:35:27] Whatever.

[02:35:28] Okay.

[02:35:28] All right.

[02:35:29] It's the...

[02:35:31] It's the very...

[02:35:32] He doesn't have to thwart Christians because they are thwarting themselves.

[02:35:38] Got it.

[02:35:39] Yeah.

[02:35:39] You know what I mean?

[02:35:39] Yeah.

[02:35:40] Yeah.

[02:35:40] Yeah.

[02:35:40] All I did was stand there.

[02:35:42] And then I turned around and farted on all of them.

[02:35:44] And they were like, please more master.

[02:35:48] All right.

[02:35:49] Number four, climate change and natural disasters increases in earthquakes, hurricanes and wildfire wildfires are seen as fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24, verse seven and revelations judgments.

[02:36:05] No.

[02:36:05] Oh, revelation apostrophe.

[02:36:08] Okay.

[02:36:09] Judgment on earth.

[02:36:10] Got it.

[02:36:10] Sorry.

[02:36:11] The judgments that belong to revelation.

[02:36:13] Got it.

[02:36:13] Got it.

[02:36:13] Yeah.

[02:36:14] On earth.

[02:36:14] I apologize.

[02:36:15] You should.

[02:36:16] Number five, technological advancements, developments in artificial intelligence, biotechnology and transhumanism, which is to say brain computer interfaces, not trans people.

[02:36:31] No, I get it.

[02:36:32] I understand that you understand it, but maybe some of our listeners did not.

[02:36:36] And I did not know what transhumanism was.

[02:36:38] So I want to make sure that everybody.

[02:36:40] I apologize.

[02:36:40] Okay.

[02:36:41] Brain computer interfaces.

[02:36:42] Right.

[02:36:42] So all of this AI and biotechnology and transhumanism stuff.

[02:36:47] These are often viewed as humanity, quote, playing God and fulfilling prophecies of knowledge increasing in the last days as foretold in Daniel chapter 12, verse four.

[02:37:01] Number six, globalism.

[02:37:04] Number six, globalism.

[02:37:04] Yeah.

[02:37:04] They've been talking about this one since my space.

[02:37:07] There's like a, there's like a thing.

[02:37:09] It's like, I almost want to say project 2030 or something like that, but it's like some, there's

[02:37:15] some sort of like corporate takeover that's going to happen in 2030 or something like that.

[02:37:19] Oh, really?

[02:37:20] Yeah.

[02:37:20] And there's this whole conspiracy theory behind it.

[02:37:22] And I'm sure it's all tied into some of this shit somewhere.

[02:37:25] But I can't keep track of all the crazy conspiracy theories out there.

[02:37:28] They're out of control.

[02:37:29] They really are.

[02:37:30] They like picked the wrong century to all exist at once.

[02:37:34] It's too hard.

[02:37:35] You know, the amazing thing to me and, and, and kudos to whoever does this, but the way

[02:37:40] they weave them all into like one major theory is kind of amazing.

[02:37:45] It's kind of like, I don't know how you get from like, you know, birds don't exist to corporate

[02:37:51] takeovers to microchips and, but it all links together and all links together and Sasquatch.

[02:37:57] Yeah, sure.

[02:37:59] I mean, and aliens, but also God.

[02:38:01] Right.

[02:38:01] But if you put all of that into chat GPT, you'd still come up with a shit story.

[02:38:07] Right.

[02:38:08] I mean, it would give you like maybe a place to start, but not a very good place to start.

[02:38:15] I know because I've, I've tried using chat GPT and it does not write well.

[02:38:20] Right.

[02:38:21] It does a bad job.

[02:38:22] It's not very creative.

[02:38:23] Yeah.

[02:38:23] So number six, globalism efforts for international cooperation, which is to say the United Nations

[02:38:30] World Economic Forum, et cetera.

[02:38:33] Yeah.

[02:38:33] United Nations got shit for a long time for being a cooperative group or whatever.

[02:38:40] Like the earthbound federation, you know, how dare.

[02:38:43] Whereas I see that as like, like, yes, please.

[02:38:45] Can we all unite and agree on things?

[02:38:46] That would be awesome.

[02:38:47] I think it would be so cool if we had like a UN that was actually a UN that was like,

[02:38:52] no, we're the good guys and we're going to take care of the planet and we're going to

[02:38:56] police the planet, but only in a good guy way because all the countries are getting together

[02:39:00] to decide it together.

[02:39:02] Right.

[02:39:02] And you can only be here if you're on the good guy team.

[02:39:05] And these are our mandates and they include, you know, backing, fixing climate change and

[02:39:14] trying to get rid of making it worse.

[02:39:16] Right.

[02:39:17] But no, instead we just give like veto power to the top three countries or whatever, top

[02:39:22] four countries.

[02:39:23] And they're like, yeah, we don't want to do that.

[02:39:25] And we have no power.

[02:39:27] We can't do anything.

[02:39:30] Good stuff.

[02:39:30] Good stuff.

[02:39:31] Number six.

[02:39:32] Oh, I just read that one.

[02:39:34] That was the globalism one.

[02:39:35] So, yeah, that's bad.

[02:39:37] We hate, we hate a government that, that is countries working together.

[02:39:41] Right.

[02:39:42] We don't like that.

[02:39:42] Number seven, moral decay.

[02:39:45] Oh, these damn kids in there saying shoot dang and fudge.

[02:39:51] That's cursing.

[02:39:52] What did we decay from?

[02:39:53] Because like in the Bible, right?

[02:39:57] It seems like he's always had a problem with moral decay.

[02:40:02] Yeah.

[02:40:02] He's never quite liked what his people did or are doing.

[02:40:06] Sometimes they peed on the wrong side of the tent.

[02:40:09] Yeah.

[02:40:10] But they was always fucking on the wrong side.

[02:40:12] Yeah.

[02:40:13] So perceived societal shifts, shifts away from traditional religious values is a fancy way

[02:40:20] of saying they don't like the gays.

[02:40:23] And it's a lot more gay happy out in the world now than it used to be.

[02:40:28] So that's the moral decay.

[02:40:30] Well, and atheists and secularism.

[02:40:33] And I mean, there's so much to that.

[02:40:36] But when it says traditional religious values, traditional family values, we're talking about

[02:40:42] anti-gay sentiment.

[02:40:43] Sure.

[02:40:44] But you could also equate things like, you know, single parents.

[02:40:48] And I mean, there's so much in that that is...

[02:40:51] Women having the choice to have kids without a man around.

[02:40:54] Right.

[02:40:54] Those bitches.

[02:40:55] No, it's the empowerment of individuals and people and ideas that scares the church overall.

[02:41:03] Yeah.

[02:41:03] And part of that is the LGBTQIA.

[02:41:05] I don't want to diminish that at all.

[02:41:07] Right.

[02:41:08] But the church is scared of change.

[02:41:11] The church is scared of moving forward.

[02:41:14] And so they push ideas of stagnation.

[02:41:17] Yeah.

[02:41:17] This is such an interesting way to phrase this.

[02:41:20] Listen to this.

[02:41:20] Perceived societal shifts away from traditional religious values are linked to 2 Timothy 3,

[02:41:28] verses 1 through 5, which describes people becoming, quote, lovers of themselves and turning

[02:41:35] away from God.

[02:41:36] So the more that you are trying to learn about others and develop compassion and, you know,

[02:41:44] become more globally aware, be woke, if you will, that is you loving yourself and turning

[02:41:52] away from God.

[02:41:54] What?

[02:41:55] Like, I think you have it exactly motherfucking wrong.

[02:41:58] Yeah.

[02:41:59] I was told today that in a conversation with somebody online that God, you know, lets us know that

[02:42:07] he's there and that it's our fault that we are atheists and that we choose not to see God.

[02:42:13] Oh, that can't possibly be true.

[02:42:15] And I'm like, I don't trust that person.

[02:42:17] I never saw God.

[02:42:18] I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, dude.

[02:42:19] No, that never happened to me.

[02:42:21] Yeah.

[02:42:21] Yeah.

[02:42:21] And trust me, there have been times in my life where it would have been better had I seen

[02:42:27] or heard from dude.

[02:42:29] Right.

[02:42:29] Yeah.

[02:42:30] I mean.

[02:42:31] Nobody wants to be miserable.

[02:42:32] Come on.

[02:42:33] Come on.

[02:42:35] Right?

[02:42:35] Yeah.

[02:42:36] Stupid fuck.

[02:42:36] Um, why these views persist is a great next topic.

[02:42:41] Confirmation bias.

[02:42:43] Those looking for signs of the end times often find patterns in current events that match

[02:42:48] their expectations.

[02:42:50] Yeah.

[02:42:51] Yeah.

[02:42:52] Fear of change.

[02:42:53] Rapid advancements and crises can feel apocalyptic to many, fueling religious interpretations.

[02:43:00] Sure.

[02:43:01] Yeah.

[02:43:01] I'm very scared of change, but I'm aware of it.

[02:43:04] Right.

[02:43:05] Right.

[02:43:05] I, I think that you have to recognize change in order to be able to act on it or act,

[02:43:10] you know, appropriately.

[02:43:11] Yeah.

[02:43:12] And that's part of why we aren't doing things in this country is because we aren't reacting

[02:43:16] appropriately.

[02:43:17] Yeah.

[02:43:17] Yeah.

[02:43:18] Historical precedent.

[02:43:20] Similar claims have been made throughout history, such as during the Black Death, the

[02:43:25] Cold War, um, both world wars.

[02:43:28] Yeah.

[02:43:28] Um, you know, it's just, we always do this.

[02:43:31] Right.

[02:43:32] These interpretations often reflect cultural anxieties rather than actual prophecy fulfillment.

[02:43:39] However, they remain compelling to many people because they provide a framework to make sense

[02:43:45] of chaotic and uncertain times.

[02:43:48] Sure.

[02:43:48] Well, and you were mentioning reasons why people believe these things.

[02:43:52] And I think that, you know, you missed a couple that were like peer pressure, you know,

[02:43:56] like people just simply being amongst other people that believe these same things.

[02:44:00] And, and I think the most important one is probably power, right?

[02:44:07] Like churches have power over their congregations and they, they draw their income and their living

[02:44:13] from their congregation.

[02:44:14] So that's a power structure right there.

[02:44:16] Those churches have higher structures that, you know, feed them money as well.

[02:44:22] The hierarchy.

[02:44:23] So those people will have a power structure over the churches and on up the line.

[02:44:27] It's a big pyramid scheme.

[02:44:29] It really is.

[02:44:29] It's churches all the way down.

[02:44:31] Well, and you can even take it on out from there to where this churches and groups of

[02:44:36] churches have political power.

[02:44:39] And so that way, really their top bosses, once you go all the way up that chain is going

[02:44:44] to be politicians and politics because they're going to feed like the, the churches feed

[02:44:50] the politicians and the politicians feed the churches, right?

[02:44:54] It's just a cycle that, that keeps going back in on itself.

[02:44:58] And, and the churches have a captive audience that they can speak to.

[02:45:03] So, and that's, that's very enticing to politicians as well.

[02:45:06] It's interesting.

[02:45:07] All the different pipelines we have because, you know, you say pipeline and the one that

[02:45:13] heartbreakingly comes to mind first is the street to jail pipeline.

[02:45:19] You know, the school to street to jail to street pipeline.

[02:45:25] Yeah.

[02:45:25] Yeah.

[02:45:27] Yeah.

[02:45:28] Definitely.

[02:45:28] So we've got pipelines at the top pipelines at the bottom and, you know, we want to break

[02:45:33] one and well, we want to break them both.

[02:45:36] Right.

[02:45:38] It's just interesting.

[02:45:40] Yep.

[02:45:40] Yep.

[02:45:41] Did you have anything else that we were covering today?

[02:45:43] No, fuck that guy.

[02:45:47] So are you convinced of a Antichrist or multiples of them?

[02:45:53] No.

[02:45:53] No.

[02:45:54] Why?

[02:45:54] I mean, what?

[02:45:56] Why would that even be a question you would ask?

[02:45:58] Like, you know me.

[02:45:59] Like, no.

[02:46:00] No, it was a joke.

[02:46:01] Okay.

[02:46:01] All right.

[02:46:01] Um, here's my next question for these Bible scholar peoples who are studying the prophecies,

[02:46:09] right?

[02:46:09] Yeah.

[02:46:10] Can you see why they would see Trump either as a Antichrist, the Antichrist or a harbinger

[02:46:21] thereof?

[02:46:22] Can I see why they see that?

[02:46:24] Yeah, definitely.

[02:46:25] I told you when we were talking about that.

[02:46:27] I mean, if there's been anybody that embodies the idea of what I thought, what the Antichrist

[02:46:31] stood for, it's Trump.

[02:46:33] Trump embodies everything that I imagine the Antichrist would be.

[02:46:37] I was trying to explain my feelings about this to, um, I had hired a writing coach for

[02:46:46] a few months.

[02:46:47] Yeah.

[02:46:48] And I was trying to explain how this, when Trump won the election the first time around,

[02:46:54] how him being the embodiment of so much evil had impacted my ability to write because what

[02:47:04] can you possibly write now?

[02:47:06] He is the ultimate, he, he is the epitome of bad.

[02:47:10] Right.

[02:47:10] There is no bad guy because there's Trump.

[02:47:14] Right.

[02:47:14] You know?

[02:47:15] And like, I couldn't conceive of a villain or stakes that were high enough or hard enough

[02:47:24] or scary enough because Trump.

[02:47:26] Right.

[02:47:27] And like, I granted, I recognize that that was just me panicking in that moment about how

[02:47:34] serious and scary it was to have him as our president.

[02:47:38] Sure.

[02:47:38] But now that he's there again, like, I still feel that way.

[02:47:44] And toward that end where I was, um, having this discussion with my, at the time writing

[02:47:51] coach, um, I have another friend who is in therapy and excuse me, um, the therapist told

[02:48:00] my friend that, um, she had parted ways with another therapist who had, um, had complaints

[02:48:09] about her because, um, this is so interesting.

[02:48:13] I'm trying to think how to phrase all of this.

[02:48:16] So, um, some of her, not my friend's therapist, but the other one.

[02:48:23] Okay.

[02:48:23] Yeah.

[02:48:24] So we'll call her like therapist X.

[02:48:26] Okay.

[02:48:27] Okay.

[02:48:27] Therapist X had gotten questions from some of her, um, patients, clients, whatever.

[02:48:36] Um, you know, I'm concerned about the election and blah, blah, blah.

[02:48:40] And politics is so scary.

[02:48:42] And a lot of these patients were people of color.

[02:48:44] And so they were like, you know, I'm feeling particularly persecuted, blah, blah, blah.

[02:48:48] And, you know, some of them were even brave enough to ask, like, I need to know who you

[02:48:53] voted for because I'm sharing, I'm bearing my soul to you and it's important.

[02:48:58] Right.

[02:48:59] And she had voted for Trump.

[02:49:01] And so these clients, people of color were asking her like, you know, how, how, how do

[02:49:10] you think that makes me feel like to know that like you are more concerned about your paycheck

[02:49:16] and the price of eggs than your own clients lives.

[02:49:20] Like we bear our soul to you.

[02:49:21] We tell you the things that we're going through that are hardships in our lives.

[02:49:27] And you're voting for somebody who wants to deport us or kill us or put us in jail just

[02:49:34] because of the color of our skin.

[02:49:35] Like how, how?

[02:49:38] And so she got very like defensive with these clients, patients, whatever, and was kind of

[02:49:47] let go.

[02:49:48] And I just, I found that situation so disturbing and I'm not even sure where I was going with

[02:49:58] it other than to say these things impact us on such a personal level, you know, not just,

[02:50:06] not just like the country and the world are in turmoil, but just even in our own living

[02:50:12] room, sitting at our desk, you know, they freeze us or, you know, trying to find somebody that

[02:50:19] you can trust and confide in and you can't because they voted for Trump.

[02:50:25] Yeah.

[02:50:26] The Antichrist.

[02:50:28] Sure.

[02:50:29] Yeah.

[02:50:29] I don't, I don't know how to follow that up.

[02:50:31] That was a, um, that was a trauma dump, right?

[02:50:34] Right.

[02:50:34] Yeah.

[02:50:35] Yikes.

[02:50:35] Um, but, uh, definitely, definitely let us know what you, what do you, do you agree?

[02:50:43] Do you think Trump is the embodiment of what the Antichrist is pitched as?

[02:50:48] Do you know, do you like, what, what are your impressions?

[02:50:50] Like what, how do you view this whole, you know, the, the Christians having, you know, this

[02:50:57] whole end times thing that they, they stand behind.

[02:51:00] Do you deal with it?

[02:51:01] Do you have anybody in your life like that?

[02:51:02] I'd love to hear stories from people.

[02:51:04] Yeah.

[02:51:04] Yeah.

[02:51:04] Whether, whether you have deconstructed, you're in the process of deconstructing, um, whether

[02:51:11] you've never been in religion, much like me and husband or, you know, religion is in

[02:51:16] your rear view mirror, far past, like all spectrum of, of that.

[02:51:22] Like, what are your thoughts on that?

[02:51:23] Yeah.

[02:51:24] No, I'd definitely be interested.

[02:51:25] Um, so I think, is that all we've got for today?

[02:51:29] Yeah.

[02:51:29] Um, I really wanted to go more in depth, but we haven't read enough new Testament, particularly

[02:51:36] revelation.

[02:51:37] Well, we had an hour and 20 minutes worth of material just right there.

[02:51:40] Oh, well.

[02:51:41] So I think we were pretty in depth there.

[02:51:43] Okay.

[02:51:44] Just kidding.

[02:51:45] I don't know when I like get a bone, sometimes I just got annoyed and I didn't realize, um,

[02:51:51] it's been so long.

[02:51:52] Yeah.

[02:51:52] Yeah.

[02:51:53] Sorry.

[02:51:53] No, that's right.

[02:51:54] That's right.

[02:51:55] It was a good, I think it was a good conversation.

[02:51:56] All right.

[02:51:57] Well, I'm done.

[02:51:58] All right.

[02:51:58] We'll see you guys.

[02:51:59] Uh, uh, well, don't forget join us on the discord live next week and you can catch it

[02:52:04] without having to be a patron.

[02:52:07] So Zach, or I'm sorry, patrion.com forward slash sacrilegious discourse, $2 a month and on

[02:52:13] Patreon, on Patreon.

[02:52:15] And you can listen to it or when discord and Wednesdays at 10 PM.

[02:52:21] That's right.

[02:52:21] Yeah.

[02:52:22] So we hopefully we'll see you in one of those two places next time we do a, you know, our

[02:52:26] special episode.

[02:52:28] Bye.

[02:52:29] Bye.

[02:52:35] Wife.

[02:52:36] Are you ready for what we're doing today?

[02:52:39] Uh, cults, right?

[02:52:40] Cults, baby cults.

[02:52:42] Yeah.

[02:52:42] It's a motherfucking cult up in here.

[02:52:44] Yeah.

[02:52:44] Part, part two.

[02:52:45] Part two.

[02:52:47] Or do.

[02:52:47] Yeah.

[02:52:48] Yeah.

[02:52:48] Yeah.

[02:52:49] So we, we, uh, started this a couple of weeks ago, I believe.

[02:52:52] Mm-hmm.

[02:52:52] And, uh, we, we ran a little long.

[02:52:55] We ran so long.

[02:52:56] We're like, we, we got to cut this into two.

[02:52:58] Maybe three.

[02:52:59] At least two.

[02:53:00] Maybe three.

[02:53:01] Who knows?

[02:53:01] Maybe three.

[02:53:02] We'll see how this goes.

[02:53:03] Yeah.

[02:53:03] So we got, uh, some more good info about, uh, where did we leave off last time?

[02:53:07] What did we talk about last?

[02:53:08] Um, I was going to summarize it in the meat.

[02:53:11] Oh, okay.

[02:53:11] All right.

[02:53:11] Yeah.

[02:53:12] Well, let's do that.

[02:53:12] So, uh, you ready to get into this then?

[02:53:14] Sure as fuck am.

[02:53:15] All right.

[02:53:15] Let's do it.

[02:53:16] Okey dokey.

[02:53:23] All right.

[02:53:23] Before we hop into this, I forgot to mention in the intro that this is a Patreon only episode.

[02:53:28] It sure as fuck is.

[02:53:29] Which means that if you're not joining us here live on Discord tonight, which is the best way to do this.

[02:53:35] Mm-hmm.

[02:53:36] And links are always in the show notes.

[02:53:37] Mm-hmm.

[02:53:38] Even on this one, if you are not a patron, there's links in the show notes for the Discord.

[02:53:41] Mm-hmm.

[02:53:42] So check that out.

[02:53:43] Join us on Discord.

[02:53:43] And you can be there next time we do a free, you know, a Patreon episode.

[02:53:47] Mm-hmm.

[02:53:47] And you don't even have to pay for it.

[02:53:48] Exactly.

[02:53:49] But if you can't be here for our lives, which are 10 p.m. Eastern every Wednesday, you can always catch these episodes on Patreon.

[02:53:57] Mm-hmm.

[02:53:57] And you can get them for as low as $2 a month.

[02:54:00] Mm-hmm.

[02:54:00] Just head over to patreon.com forward slash sacrilegious discourse.

[02:54:04] Yes.

[02:54:04] That being said, you ready to get into this episode here?

[02:54:09] Indeed, I am.

[02:54:10] All right.

[02:54:10] Let's do it.

[02:54:11] All right.

[02:54:12] So last time we did this, we talked about cults versus religions.

[02:54:16] We did.

[02:54:17] And we started with charisma and authority and living prophets versus historical figures.

[02:54:26] Do you remember that?

[02:54:26] That was like people here on Earth versus like Jesus or Muhammad or whatever.

[02:54:32] Sure.

[02:54:33] Yeah.

[02:54:33] Right?

[02:54:33] And then isolation and control.

[02:54:36] Right.

[02:54:37] And apocalyptic and fear-based messaging.

[02:54:41] Mm-hmm.

[02:54:41] And that was all under defining cults versus religion.

[02:54:46] And we will be covering more of that because we aren't done with that.

[02:54:51] Got it.

[02:54:51] Okay.

[02:54:51] Okay.

[02:54:51] We also covered a report that sustained fear-based messaging can erode mental capacities and make individuals more susceptible to manipulation,

[02:55:02] a.k.a.

[02:55:03] brainwashing.

[02:55:04] Right.

[02:55:05] And that that's kind of a thing that's been happening.

[02:55:08] Yeah.

[02:55:08] To the Republicans.

[02:55:11] And our media landscape.

[02:55:12] Uh-huh.

[02:55:13] Just in general.

[02:55:14] Yeah.

[02:55:14] I would say that media understands the idea that if you promote fear, that you have a more willing listenership.

[02:55:22] Yeah.

[02:55:22] To buy into other things if you can catch them on that.

[02:55:25] Yeah.

[02:55:26] And the more that they continue being afraid, the more that you can like pass by these other ideas to them and they'll buy it because they're in a position mentally to do so.

[02:55:36] Right.

[02:55:37] Yeah.

[02:55:37] So that's exciting.

[02:55:39] Isn't it though?

[02:55:40] Right?

[02:55:40] Mm-hmm.

[02:55:40] Okay.

[02:55:41] So moving on, we're still defining cults versus religion.

[02:55:45] Okay.

[02:55:46] And the next thing would be sacrifice and control over personal lives.

[02:55:52] So cult leaders tend to demand extraordinary levels of personal sacrifice and control, often dictating followers' relationships, sexual behavior, finances, and even diet.

[02:56:07] Wow.

[02:56:07] Jones famously required his followers to give up their possessions and live communally.

[02:56:12] This is Jim Jones.

[02:56:13] Jim Jones.

[02:56:15] Well, with Heaven's Gate.

[02:56:16] Yeah.

[02:56:17] Yeah.

[02:56:17] Yeah.

[02:56:18] Okay.

[02:56:18] And then Koresh, David Koresh of the Davidian –

[02:56:21] French Davidian.

[02:56:22] Yeah, them guys, took it further by claiming the right to have intimate relationships with his followers, including young girls under the guise of, quote, spiritual duty.

[02:56:33] Oh, wow.

[02:56:34] Because he grody.

[02:56:35] Yeah.

[02:56:35] While the leaders of certain religious groups also have specific moral expectations, these demands are usually less extreme and can be interpreted through broader frameworks like priests or pastors who interpret scripture rather than inventing, quote-unquote, new commands for their followers.

[02:56:55] Having said that, I do not want to overlook the fact that religious leaders are also pretty fucking grody and do their own form of covering up for each other and hiding the nastiness that they do.

[02:57:12] And using the power that they do have to –

[02:57:14] Abusing their power.

[02:57:15] Over people.

[02:57:16] Yeah.

[02:57:16] So, yeah.

[02:57:16] Totally.

[02:57:17] Yeah.

[02:57:17] That wasn't listed here in what I was reading and I just felt like it was important to add that because let us not overlook that.

[02:57:27] Absolutely.

[02:57:28] Yeah.

[02:57:28] And I mean, let's just not – you know, let's not beat around the bush.

[02:57:31] There is some aspect of cultishness in –

[02:57:35] Well, this is a special Patreon episode actually.

[02:57:45] Which means that they need to go to Patreon and subscribe as a patron in order to listen to it.

[02:57:52] Okay.

[02:57:53] Well, I guess that we are going to go do that now.

[02:57:56] Yeah.

[02:57:56] Just head over to patreon.com forward slash sacrilegious discourse.

[02:58:00] Become a member for as low as $2 a month and you'll have access to all these special things and goodies too.

[02:58:06] So, you know, go do that.

[02:58:07] So, this was just a teaser.

[02:58:09] Yeah.

[02:58:10] Teaser.

[02:58:10] Bye.

[02:58:10] Just checking.

[02:58:11] Bye.

[02:58:11] Bye.

[02:58:12] Bye.