Conspiracy Theory Melting Pot (Part 2)

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[00:00:47] So there are three different factions of belief. And they are basically flat earthers arguing amongst themselves.

[00:01:01] Got it.

[00:01:02] The first faction subscribes to a faith-based conflict in which atheists use science to suppress the Christian faith.

[00:01:10] We're so evil like that.

[00:01:11] I know, I know.

[00:01:12] I mean, it's awful.

[00:01:13] Why would we, why would we just like, we must really love the devil to be not believing in the devil or God just to fight these Christians on their belief of God because he's just such a shitty God.

[00:01:25] He is a shitty God actually.

[00:01:27] But you know, if he was a God, but anyway, sorry.

[00:01:30] Yeah.

[00:01:31] So their argument.

[00:01:33] I was having a thought in my head.

[00:01:34] Yeah.

[00:01:34] I'm like, okay, can I go now?

[00:01:36] I know.

[00:01:37] Their argument is that atheists use pseudoscience, evolution, big bang and the round earth.

[00:01:44] Okay.

[00:01:45] To make people believe that God is an abstract idea, not real.

[00:01:49] So we are using science and science is our downfall.

[00:01:56] Like they are mad at our science and they think that our science is the problem.

[00:02:02] So what I'm understanding here is that pretty much all of this goes back to they believe in God and we're, you know, our science is tearing them down and we're evil for doing that to them.

[00:02:13] It's very personal for them.

[00:02:14] Right.

[00:02:14] Whereas for us, it's like, we're just trying to live.

[00:02:17] But then that kind of translates out into little tendrils that also include flat earth and other weird shit that exactly, you know, maybe birds not existing and whatever.

[00:02:26] Oh my gosh.

[00:02:28] So the second faction believes in an overarching conspiracy for knowledge suppression, building upon the premise that knowledge is power.

[00:02:38] The flat earth conspiracy argues that a shadowy group of elites.

[00:02:42] It's always a shadowy group.

[00:02:44] You ever notice that?

[00:02:44] The dark, the dark state.

[00:02:47] Right.

[00:02:47] The deep state.

[00:02:48] The deep state.

[00:02:49] Yeah.

[00:02:49] It's always some like nefarious sounding name that they say.

[00:02:54] Yeah.

[00:02:54] The shadow government.

[00:02:55] Yeah.

[00:02:56] They control knowledge to remain in power.

[00:02:59] Oh, yeah.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:01] There's probably only like three people controlling the whole world.

[00:03:04] I've heard that one too.

[00:03:05] Right.

[00:03:05] Right.

[00:03:06] And look, look, that's Illuminati.

[00:03:08] No, definitely.

[00:03:09] But in that type of idea has some sway with people, too, because we see these people like Jeff Bezos or or they hate the guy Bill Gates.

[00:03:19] Right.

[00:03:19] You know, like they see these people have all this money and all this power and all this ability to make changes in the world.

[00:03:25] And they're like, well, it's all that person's fault.

[00:03:28] Like it's, you know, one of the biggest things we have talked about in reading through the Bible is the ability to scapegoat people.

[00:03:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:38] You know, George Soros, you know, like that's another one that people love to throw out there.

[00:03:42] Yeah.

[00:03:42] But there's a, but they love to use people as scapegoats.

[00:03:47] And in the Bible, they also use God as a scapegoat.

[00:03:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:51] Like God said, this is why this happened and, you know, whatever.

[00:03:55] And they, I guess not God, but the sinners that are causing the problems that cause God to react the way he does.

[00:04:01] Right.

[00:04:01] So those are their scapegoats.

[00:04:03] It's your fault for doing this.

[00:04:04] Right.

[00:04:05] But anyway, that's, that's all I was saying.

[00:04:08] I just, it's, it's a convenient excuse to hate people.

[00:04:11] Well, yeah.

[00:04:11] I mean, that's what it all comes down to.

[00:04:13] Right.

[00:04:14] In their view, this second faction lying about the fundamental nature of the earth primes the population to believe a host of other conspiracies.

[00:04:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:23] And this faction frames flat earth arguments as liberatory.

[00:04:27] So they're like, we believe in this in order to be free of the power, like fight the power.

[00:04:35] Right.

[00:04:35] You know what I mean?

[00:04:36] Yeah.

[00:04:36] So if you don't believe in this, you're being controlled.

[00:04:39] No.

[00:04:40] And I would say that that's the mistrust of power, quote unquote, is, is definitely a prevalent theme amongst the people that I hear from MAGA.

[00:04:50] Yeah.

[00:04:50] To the other things that we've talked about.

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:52] I mean, like that power structure that is inherent in the system that we live under, you know, politics, science, society in general, is what they rail against.

[00:05:04] Not that we don't all rail against that at some level.

[00:05:06] Like, I don't generally like my bosses, you know?

[00:05:10] Sure.

[00:05:10] I'm just saying, like, you know, there's always something that we don't like about somebody that's above us, right?

[00:05:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:16] And it's easy to use that as a reason to start hating things.

[00:05:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:20] And that's not the way to handle it.

[00:05:22] You know, the way you handle it is proactiveness.

[00:05:25] Right.

[00:05:25] Like, let's find out why we hate our boss.

[00:05:27] Maybe there's some, maybe he was in a bad mood that day.

[00:05:29] Right.

[00:05:29] Maybe, maybe you aren't doing something that's causing him to react to you in a different way than he does other people.

[00:05:36] Right.

[00:05:37] You know, I'm not saying that that's the case every time, but I'm saying these people don't want to ask the questions.

[00:05:42] They just want to blame.

[00:05:44] Blame.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:45] And that's what's happening with these things.

[00:05:47] Yeah.

[00:05:48] So the third faction believes that knowledge is personal and experiential.

[00:05:55] Yeah, okay.

[00:05:56] They are dismissive of knowledge that comes from authoritative sources, especially book knowledge.

[00:06:01] Right.

[00:06:02] Okay?

[00:06:02] This faction would like to find out themselves whether the earth truly is round or flat.

[00:06:07] Like, I don't necessarily oppose the I want to find out for myself because I have a little bit.

[00:06:13] I want to learn.

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:14] I want to get on the interwebs and find the facts.

[00:06:16] For sure.

[00:06:17] But...

[00:06:17] I feel like these are just people that don't have library cards, though.

[00:06:20] Yeah.

[00:06:21] Yeah.

[00:06:22] Because they distrust book knowledge and mathematical proof, this faction believes that the earth is flat because their observations and lived experiences make it appear as if we live on a flat surface.

[00:06:34] So they're the dumbest.

[00:06:36] Yeah.

[00:06:36] I was going to say that's such a, like, simplistic view of the world as to not even be a relevant...

[00:06:42] Like, that's just such a dismissible conversation.

[00:06:44] There's so many uneducated people.

[00:06:47] Right.

[00:06:47] That...

[00:06:47] No, I get it.

[00:06:49] To them, you're saying something ridiculous.

[00:06:52] Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:06:54] 33% of the millennials don't even know for sure whether the earth is round or not.

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:06:59] Which...

[00:07:00] Jesus Christ.

[00:07:00] That's a lot of millennials.

[00:07:02] That's fucked up.

[00:07:02] So, this faction frames flat earth arguments as experimental.

[00:07:08] Okay?

[00:07:09] Okay.

[00:07:10] Yeah.

[00:07:11] Yeah.

[00:07:11] Yeah.

[00:07:12] All right.

[00:07:13] So, we're going to move on now to the anti-vax movement.

[00:07:19] And I'm not going to go into as much history there.

[00:07:22] Okay.

[00:07:23] Yeah.

[00:07:23] Why do we all kind of know a lot of that?

[00:07:26] Right.

[00:07:26] Well, that's a little bit more...

[00:07:27] Our generation knows more.

[00:07:28] Yeah.

[00:07:28] Maybe not some of the younger generations as much.

[00:07:30] It's a little bit more common knowledge and modern history than the flat earth.

[00:07:36] More so.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:37] For sure.

[00:07:37] So, the anti-vax movement also emerged from skepticism about the safety and necessity of

[00:07:44] vaccines.

[00:07:45] Right.

[00:07:45] Duh.

[00:07:46] While vaccine resistance has existed for centuries, the modern movement took off in 1998,

[00:07:52] which again, that's kind of modern times-ish.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:57] When British doctor Andrew Wakefield published a now discredited study falsely linking the

[00:08:03] MMR shot to autism.

[00:08:06] And MMR is measles, mumps, and rubella.

[00:08:08] Sure.

[00:08:08] Which I specifically remember getting that shot.

[00:08:11] Yeah.

[00:08:11] And what's really funny is that like if you're in the military, there is no room for like believe

[00:08:16] or disbelief.

[00:08:17] You all stand in a line and somebody walks down the line and shoots each of your arms.

[00:08:22] Sure.

[00:08:22] Like that's just the way it'd be.

[00:08:24] You're going places, you get your shots.

[00:08:26] Right.

[00:08:26] You get your vaccines.

[00:08:28] Yep.

[00:08:28] And that's that.

[00:08:29] Right.

[00:08:30] You don't get an opinion in the fucking matter.

[00:08:32] Right.

[00:08:32] Yeah.

[00:08:32] So we've gone from that to everybody has these little snowflake fucking feelings about

[00:08:39] vaccines.

[00:08:40] Well, and I distinctly remember when I was in school, if you didn't have your vaccines,

[00:08:46] you weren't allowed to go to school.

[00:08:48] You had to get them to go to school.

[00:08:50] Yeah.

[00:08:50] I didn't know anybody that didn't because I was a military brat.

[00:08:54] Sure.

[00:08:55] And then when we moved to the States, I was already in 11th grade and I, it didn't even

[00:09:01] occur to me to ask the civilian kids around me.

[00:09:04] Well, moreover, I would say at the time when I was younger, I don't recall there being

[00:09:08] any, you know, anti-vaccine sentiment in the world.

[00:09:12] I'm sure there was, but my parents weren't talking about it and it wasn't mainstreamed.

[00:09:19] Yeah.

[00:09:19] Like it was definitely, it was definitely fringe and it was the internet that made it become

[00:09:25] a thing.

[00:09:26] Right.

[00:09:26] So, um, the study sparked widespread fear despite its eventually debunking.

[00:09:33] And Wakefield's loss of his medical license.

[00:09:37] Oh, wow.

[00:09:38] Yeah.

[00:09:38] So, I mean, he did this study and then scientists were like, the hell you say that's so fucking

[00:09:44] wrong.

[00:09:45] You're fired and your medical license is now revoked.

[00:09:49] Hmm.

[00:09:49] And despite that, like that was the literal beginning of today's anti-vax movement.

[00:09:55] Right.

[00:09:56] And we can't, you know, I don't, I don't know anything about the study.

[00:10:00] I didn't study it myself, so I don't want to speak to whatever he did, didn't do whatever.

[00:10:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:04] But the fact that that study has caused so much anti-vax sentiment, um, regardless of

[00:10:11] it's, you know, anything about it.

[00:10:13] And I don't care which side of this you're on, you've caused way more harm than good.

[00:10:19] Well, and that is part of why, um, science requires peer review.

[00:10:25] Like you can't just publish your theory.

[00:10:27] Right.

[00:10:27] Like who, however this study got published, those people should be held under scrutiny as well.

[00:10:35] Because most science, um, and medical magazines have to, they, they don't just accept rando,

[00:10:45] um, articles from scientists.

[00:10:48] They have to be peer reviewed before they're published.

[00:10:51] So this wasn't, he didn't do an actual study or?

[00:10:52] He did a study, but it was very, it wasn't using controlled, um.

[00:10:57] So, um.

[00:10:58] So then, okay.

[00:11:00] So it was not a correct study.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:02] Okay.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:03] He, he.

[00:11:04] And that's why he probably lost his license and all that stuff.

[00:11:06] Yes.

[00:11:07] Okay.

[00:11:07] Yes.

[00:11:07] And, um, his study was debunked like a lot of people, like he was trying to prove something

[00:11:13] that had already, like we've already done all this.

[00:11:16] Thanks.

[00:11:16] Got it.

[00:11:18] A, we've already done that.

[00:11:20] You did not disprove anything, but B, thanks for even trying because you did your trying wrong.

[00:11:26] Right.

[00:11:26] So fuck you.

[00:11:27] You fail at science.

[00:11:28] Bye.

[00:11:28] Yeah.

[00:11:29] But, um, the magazine that published it again should be held accountable as well because,

[00:11:35] um, they normally.

[00:11:38] Well, at this point the genie's out of the bottle.

[00:11:39] It's not like we're not.

[00:11:41] No, I know.

[00:11:42] There's no going back to the pre, you know, the era where we trusted vaccines.

[00:11:47] No.

[00:11:47] That is true.

[00:11:48] That is true.

[00:11:49] But a lot of, um, magazines now, especially like the Lancet.

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:55] Um, or is it the Lancet or the Lance?

[00:11:57] I don't remember.

[00:11:58] It's a medical magazine at any rate.

[00:12:00] Yeah.

[00:12:00] And, uh, they will only publish peer reviewed articles or they will publish it in, in the

[00:12:07] understanding that it's still in question and has not been yet confirmed.

[00:12:12] Got it.

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:13] So that for one, that did change for the better how, um, studies are published.

[00:12:20] That's good.

[00:12:20] Yeah.

[00:12:21] There's something that good came out of it, I guess.

[00:12:23] Right.

[00:12:23] Yeah.

[00:12:23] Yeah.

[00:12:24] The internet played a key role in spreading this misinformation, allowing anti-vaxxers

[00:12:29] to share anecdotal stories and form communities that further fueled, dun, dun, dun, distrust

[00:12:36] in medical science and public health institutions.

[00:12:39] Sure.

[00:12:40] Yeah.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:41] Well, I distinctly remember there was a, was it when was, I don't want to say the wrong

[00:12:45] person.

[00:12:46] Was it Gwyneth Paltrow that was part of the, um, anti-vax movement or something like that?

[00:12:51] No, it was, um, oh, what the fuck?

[00:12:54] What was her name?

[00:12:55] Uh, the big actress that was involved in that was actually Jim Carrey's wife.

[00:13:00] Oh, really?

[00:13:01] Yeah.

[00:13:01] I can't remember her name though.

[00:13:03] Got it.

[00:13:03] She's an actress.

[00:13:04] Okay.

[00:13:04] A famous actress.

[00:13:06] So forget that I said, uh, the first person.

[00:13:08] Well, Gwyneth Paltrow is like an entirely different bag of nuts that we should talk about

[00:13:12] someday.

[00:13:13] Got it.

[00:13:14] Um, I'm going to bet she's vaxxed to the gills while she's shilling all of her products.

[00:13:20] Got it.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:22] So you're probably right.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:23] I have opinions about her.

[00:13:25] Okay.

[00:13:25] Her little goop bullshittery.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:29] So, um, the MAGA or make America great again movement.

[00:13:34] Yeah.

[00:13:34] Just in case anybody doesn't know what MAGA stands for at this point.

[00:13:38] Trump.

[00:13:39] Yeah.

[00:13:39] Led by Donald Trump shares many of the traits that define both flat earth and anti-vax ideologies.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Central to MAGA is the following.

[00:13:50] Ready?

[00:13:51] A profound distrust of government, the media and scientific experts.

[00:13:56] Traits that resonate strongly with conspiracy theorists.

[00:14:01] Trump's repeated attacks on the so-called deep state and fake news created an environment

[00:14:08] where alternative narratives and conspiracies flourish.

[00:14:13] Well, and I, moreover, I think that he is playing on these ideas that people have in order to take advantage of them.

[00:14:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:24] So, I mean, that's one of the most nefarious things about this whole thing, whether it's on purpose or not.

[00:14:29] Right.

[00:14:29] Is to be determined, is, doesn't really matter.

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:33] But that's one of the things that I really hate about it.

[00:14:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:38] This created fertile ground for other fringe beliefs to intersect with the MAGA movement.

[00:14:43] Yeah.

[00:14:43] Trump's rhetoric during the COVID-19 pandemic, downplaying the severity of the virus, promoting unproven treatments like hydroxychloroquine.

[00:14:52] Yes, I recall that.

[00:14:53] Yeah.

[00:14:54] And expressing skepticism about vaccines.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:57] Like, yeah, let's not forget that he also encouraged people to shoot bleach into their veins to clean them out.

[00:15:03] Right.

[00:15:03] Yeah.

[00:15:04] And also to figure out a way to harness sunshine.

[00:15:07] Yeah.

[00:15:08] To your inside somehow.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:10] Apparently.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:11] Interesting.

[00:15:12] All of that further aligned the anti-vax movement with MAGA.

[00:15:15] His focus on individual freedom and resistance to government mandates echoed anti-vax arguments that opposed compulsory vaccinations and mask mandates.

[00:15:29] Right.

[00:15:29] Leading many MAGA supporters to adopt anti-vaccine positions.

[00:15:35] Now, again, it's easy to make that jump to the resistance to authority with regard to people telling them what to do with their, you know, what they need to do in order to be healthy.

[00:15:44] Exactly.

[00:15:44] Like that's if you already distrust authority, this is just another authority telling you what to do.

[00:15:50] Exactly.

[00:15:50] That's all it is.

[00:15:51] Exactly.

[00:15:52] The merging of these beliefs is largely the result of a shared mistrust of authority.

[00:15:57] Yeah.

[00:15:58] Right.

[00:15:59] Flat earthers believe that NASA, the scientific community and global elites are hiding the truth about the Earth's shape to maintain control over the masses.

[00:16:08] Anti-vaxxers argue that pharmaceutical companies and government health agencies are profiting from vaccines while hiding their supposed dangers.

[00:16:18] And Bill Gates.

[00:16:20] Mm hmm.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:20] Don't forget.

[00:16:21] He's got the chips or something.

[00:16:22] Yeah.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:23] Not really.

[00:16:25] MAGA supporters fueled by Trump's anti-establishment rhetoric believe in deep state conspiracies and government overreach, particularly during the pandemic.

[00:16:36] So they all have this misbelief, disbelief or unbelief.

[00:16:42] But, you know, the funny bit is not.

[00:16:44] No, it's not funny at all.

[00:16:45] Right.

[00:16:45] But the same people that believe that about the government now are willing to give more power to Trump to do more nefarious things.

[00:16:56] Yes.

[00:16:57] To counter the supposed, you know, people in the power.

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:02] They're willing to give up everything that they are fighting against.

[00:17:06] Yes.

[00:17:06] And that's the part that I just can't wrap my brain around.

[00:17:09] The lack of logic.

[00:17:10] The lack of critical thinking.

[00:17:11] Yeah.

[00:17:11] Yeah.

[00:17:12] And that's what it comes down to.

[00:17:14] There's nothing about this argument that is rational.

[00:17:17] Right.

[00:17:17] You know, like they don't think it through to its fullest potential.

[00:17:20] No.

[00:17:21] And that's, you know, when you watch a lot of the YouTubers that go in and ask the MAGA crowd questions, right?

[00:17:26] Mm hmm.

[00:17:27] They'll bring up something like that and then they trip them up every single time.

[00:17:30] You're talking about Klepper.

[00:17:31] Well, not just Klepper.

[00:17:32] There's a there's a few people that I watch.

[00:17:34] But Klepper is the best.

[00:17:35] Klepper is definitely one of them.

[00:17:38] And it's, you know, he they they go in there and they ask him a question.

[00:17:43] They and they can't answer because they don't actually know the answer and they don't understand why they believe what they believe.

[00:17:48] Or they answer the question.

[00:17:51] And then the interviewer will try to lead them to the answer by saying, so you believe this, but not that.

[00:18:00] And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:18:02] And they're like, but that applies to.

[00:18:05] Right.

[00:18:05] And and they can't do the math.

[00:18:07] They can't put the ideas together.

[00:18:10] Right.

[00:18:10] And they never understand how this at the end relates back to themselves, because ultimately, unless you've really unless you're one of the people that are in charge of making these ideas all fit together neatly in a box.

[00:18:24] Most of the people that they're talking to, and I would say the majority of people that believe these ideas haven't fully thought them through.

[00:18:31] What I'm referring to, though, is not about the beliefs themselves.

[00:18:36] It's a lack of critical skill, critical thinking skills.

[00:18:40] Sure.

[00:18:40] They cannot combine this idea plus that idea.

[00:18:44] Right.

[00:18:45] They literally cannot add two plus two to get for being the same as one plus three is also for sure and forget zero plus four is for.

[00:18:53] Like understanding all of these different concepts are the same would be completely foreign to them.

[00:19:01] They cannot make analogies.

[00:19:03] My dad falls into that category.

[00:19:05] Right.

[00:19:05] Bless his heart.

[00:19:06] He cannot.

[00:19:07] It's true.

[00:19:07] He literally like if I try to make an analogy with something, he gets lost in the what I'm using as a comparison.

[00:19:16] Right.

[00:19:16] Every single time.

[00:19:17] You've so aggravating.

[00:19:19] It is.

[00:19:19] Right.

[00:19:19] And I always forget because like I am somewhat of a visual person.

[00:19:24] So I use analogies in my way of thinking to make an idea cement.

[00:19:31] Yeah.

[00:19:31] So I try to do that because that's the way I think I try to do that when I'm explaining my perspective to somebody else.

[00:19:39] Right.

[00:19:39] And so I always forget like this isn't going to work on this person.

[00:19:44] Yeah.

[00:19:44] You're and I used to get mad as a child when I would argue with my dad and I would be like, you don't understand what I'm saying.

[00:19:52] And he would get so mad because he thought that I was like insulting him.

[00:19:55] And as a child, I was like, no, I'm insulting myself by saying I can't make it clear.

[00:20:01] I can't find the right words.

[00:20:02] Like now as an adult, I'm like, no, actually, you are stupid.

[00:20:07] But that's one of those things like, OK, maybe you can't maybe you can't get analogies.

[00:20:13] Right.

[00:20:13] Maybe it's just something in your brain that does not connect those dots.

[00:20:15] Right.

[00:20:15] Right.

[00:20:16] But you would think after a long life, you would have picked up, figured that out.

[00:20:21] Right.

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:22] Like, hey, a lot of people can't relate to me on this that, you know, on this idea or that idea or whatever.

[00:20:27] When you make comparisons, I totally don't get where you're going with that.

[00:20:30] Right.

[00:20:31] It's a pattern.

[00:20:32] Right.

[00:20:32] Yeah.

[00:20:33] But that's where self-analysis comes in.

[00:20:35] And that's something that doesn't happen a lot in people that want to, you know, believe what they want to believe.

[00:20:42] Yeah.

[00:20:42] And don't want to be challenged on their beliefs.

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:45] So.

[00:20:46] Well, and I kind of hold my mom responsible for that.

[00:20:49] Like you've been married to him for coming on 50 years and you haven't once told him that, dude, let's practice analogies because you're really bad at him.

[00:20:56] Right.

[00:20:57] Right.

[00:20:59] So anyway, this shared, where was I?

[00:21:03] I don't know.

[00:21:04] Okay.

[00:21:04] This shared sense of being deceived by powerful institutions has led to a natural alignment between these movements.

[00:21:13] Social media platforms, particularly Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter.

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:18] Which we've already talked about.

[00:21:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:19] Have played a critical role in bringing these communities together.

[00:21:23] Oh, have they ever.

[00:21:24] Yeah.

[00:21:24] Algorithms that promote sensationalist content, which we talked about algorithms earlier, allow conspiracy theories to thrive with users often jumping from one conspiracy to another because they all lead to the same place.

[00:21:38] Yeah.

[00:21:38] We just had the recent one that was around us here with the immigrants in Springfield.

[00:21:43] The Haitian immigrants eating pets in Springfield, Ohio.

[00:21:46] Oh, my God.

[00:21:47] Like, literally, people that live here, we're less than a half hour from the city.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:52] There's people that live around us that I work with that believed this is true.

[00:21:57] And it's like, guys, we're talking about this city part of Dayton.

[00:22:02] Like, it's North Dayton.

[00:22:03] Like, this is not a different planet we're talking about.

[00:22:07] No, one of the guys that I work with literally lives in Springfield.

[00:22:10] Oh, does he really?

[00:22:11] Yeah.

[00:22:11] Oh, wow.

[00:22:12] And he believed it to be true.

[00:22:13] Like, what the fuck?

[00:22:14] I'm like, what are you, what, what the fuck, man?

[00:22:16] And these people that believe this, like, they would die.

[00:22:20] They're like, I will die on this hill and I've seen it with my own neighbor's eyes.

[00:22:26] But that's just it.

[00:22:26] When I questioned him about it.

[00:22:27] You didn't catch that.

[00:22:28] Oh, with my own neighbor's eyes.

[00:22:30] Yeah.

[00:22:30] Yeah.

[00:22:30] That's good.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:31] But that, yeah, exactly.

[00:22:32] Right?

[00:22:32] It wasn't anything that he saw.

[00:22:34] No.

[00:22:34] It was stuff.

[00:22:35] He lives in Springfield.

[00:22:37] Yeah.

[00:22:38] But he saw it on Facebook.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:42] And it wasn't even from, like, somebody directly that he knew.

[00:22:45] It was somebody that shared something to, you know, whatever.

[00:22:47] It was one of those viral posts.

[00:22:48] Yeah.

[00:22:48] That came through probably nationally back to him in Springfield.

[00:22:53] And then he believes this bullshit about his own goddamn city.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:56] That's weird.

[00:22:57] Like, what kind of bullshit is that?

[00:22:59] Right.

[00:22:59] I've also got a liberal friend who went up there to eat lunch or to have lunch at the

[00:23:04] Haitian restaurant that's up there.

[00:23:06] To support them.

[00:23:06] Right.

[00:23:07] Because there are Haitians up there.

[00:23:08] There are.

[00:23:09] Yeah.

[00:23:10] There is a community of Haitians there.

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:13] Who are there, to be clear, they are there legally.

[00:23:16] Yes.

[00:23:16] And they are there contributing to the community.

[00:23:20] Right.

[00:23:20] And let's be honest.

[00:23:22] What this boils down to is basically racism.

[00:23:24] Well, yeah.

[00:23:24] It's not anything more than that.

[00:23:26] It's not anything less than that.

[00:23:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:28] And it's just unbelievable.

[00:23:32] Yeah.

[00:23:32] How willing people are to believe such bullshit so quickly just because of which side and

[00:23:41] which authority told them.

[00:23:43] Yeah.

[00:23:44] Because if Biden or Harris had said it, then obviously it'd be a lie.

[00:23:49] Because if we say that the sky is fucking blue, they'd call it pink just to be spiteful.

[00:23:54] Right.

[00:23:54] You know?

[00:23:54] Now, look, I would have thought if the same person that lived in Springfield had told me,

[00:24:00] hey, this happened to me.

[00:24:01] This is what happened.

[00:24:02] I've got video evidence.

[00:24:03] You know?

[00:24:04] Like, that would be a different story.

[00:24:05] I'd have to be like, okay.

[00:24:07] Okay.

[00:24:08] But hear me out, though.

[00:24:10] That never happens.

[00:24:11] Right.

[00:24:11] That's the problem.

[00:24:12] Yeah.

[00:24:12] I'm not saying that.

[00:24:14] Everybody quotes somebody else's video, but that video never quite surfaces.

[00:24:19] Right.

[00:24:20] The proof never rises to the top.

[00:24:22] Right.

[00:24:23] You know?

[00:24:23] And trust me, I want to see it.

[00:24:25] If you've got it, I want to see it.

[00:24:27] Definitely.

[00:24:28] If you've got proof of God, I want to see it.

[00:24:30] Right.

[00:24:30] If you've got proof the earth is flat, I want to see it.

[00:24:33] I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.

[00:24:34] Sure.

[00:24:35] Show me the fucking proof.

[00:24:36] I'm actually very willing to admit I'm wrong.

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:39] But I don't.

[00:24:40] I don't think I am.

[00:24:41] I don't.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:43] I don't think I am.

[00:24:44] But I also, I don't see you doing.

[00:24:46] The diligence.

[00:24:48] Right.

[00:24:48] You're not putting in the work here.

[00:24:49] No.

[00:24:50] So.

[00:24:50] Actually, toward that same conversation.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:54] There's a, like, I belong to a writing community.

[00:24:58] By writing, I'm not saying like horse writing.

[00:25:00] I'm saying novel writing.

[00:25:01] And there is an independently published author in that community who is well known and not well known if you're outside that community.

[00:25:13] And she prescribes to this and had posted something about, you know, this is this is not funny.

[00:25:23] Haitians eating pets is nothing to laugh about.

[00:25:27] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:25:27] Like she fully believed it.

[00:25:29] Right.

[00:25:29] And, like, I have to remain anonymous and can't speak up in defense against that because I am part of the writing community.

[00:25:37] And I don't, you know, eventually want her being one of the gatekeepers that gets me kicked out.

[00:25:43] So.

[00:25:43] Right.

[00:25:44] That's, you know, like bullshit.

[00:25:46] Right.

[00:25:47] No.

[00:25:47] And that's those are difficult.

[00:25:48] I mean, I've run into the simple situation at work.

[00:25:51] And that's some of that.

[00:25:51] That's part of the like on a small scale problematic, but not small scale, because these are our individual careers and these are our communities and these are our neighbors and these are the people that can help us or harm us.

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:08] And we have to just not say, oh, actually, when you say that there's video evidence, there's not.

[00:26:16] But thank you for trying.

[00:26:18] Well, no, you can absolutely say those things, but you have to pick and choose your battles sometimes.

[00:26:22] Right.

[00:26:23] Like, I mean, you can't.

[00:26:25] The position we get put in is that people who hold power sometimes are in charge of determining your fate.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] And you.

[00:26:36] And that's where this gets real nefarious.

[00:26:38] This is where this gets real dangerous.

[00:26:40] Yeah.

[00:26:40] Is that the people that are the most adamant, the most vocal oftentimes also have some power or sway.

[00:26:47] Yes.

[00:26:47] Over certain communities or people.

[00:26:49] Yes.

[00:26:49] And by having such sway, they are able to through bullying, essentially through through just blusteriness and just, you know, assholishness.

[00:26:59] They're able to push their ideas onto other people or at least make them shut up about it.

[00:27:05] Yeah.

[00:27:05] I was going to say they don't even necessarily push their ideas so much as they make you not be able to speak the actual event.

[00:27:14] Right.

[00:27:15] And because it would make for a toxic environment if you did.

[00:27:18] Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:19] And I'm like, how about if you just don't?

[00:27:21] And like, I'm not going to convince you.

[00:27:24] You're not going to convince me.

[00:27:25] You know, at this point, Trumpy is going to Trump and the rest of us going to try to dump, you know?

[00:27:30] Yeah.

[00:27:31] Like, let's just never talk about it ever within our career fields so that, you know, we don't have to get into this.

[00:27:39] I have started working on my on my where I work like that.

[00:27:42] But you've been there long enough and built up cloud.

[00:27:44] I've built up some cloud and then I've started breaking, you know, my silence about who I am and telling people, hey, I'm I am a liberal.

[00:27:53] I'm not you know, I don't I don't I don't need to hear any more of this.

[00:27:57] And so when you talk your racist bullshit, actually, I don't agree with you.

[00:28:02] Well, generally, I would just leave as they started talking to any politics because I didn't want to be a part of it.

[00:28:07] Yeah.

[00:28:07] You know, I did.

[00:28:08] I put my work in.

[00:28:09] I made myself known and I made myself a presence at my work.

[00:28:12] And then now I am slowly breaking the news to people.

[00:28:18] You know, I have a way of doing it.

[00:28:20] Yeah.

[00:28:20] I start with people that I know I can trust.

[00:28:22] And even though they're assholes about certain ideas, but then I work my way through the crowd and eventually everybody knows I don't have to be silent about it anymore.

[00:28:32] Right.

[00:28:32] And in fact, I can start putting my ideas out there as well.

[00:28:35] And at the very least, they know not to talk racist and sexist bullshit around you because you will shut that shit down right now that now that it's out.

[00:28:45] Yeah.

[00:28:45] Yeah.

[00:28:45] But I have to work myself into that position.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:48] And I don't have that ability.

[00:28:50] So I'm a little jealous of it because I'm like, that's fucking racist.

[00:28:54] I don't really want to talk about that.

[00:28:57] Can you not?

[00:28:58] Well, yeah.

[00:28:58] And that's antagonistic.

[00:29:00] The sexy thing to do is to just get up and yell at them.

[00:29:03] Right.

[00:29:03] Like that's that's the that's the I mean, I was the thing.

[00:29:05] That's the thing that everybody wants to do is like you fucking, you know, piece of shit.

[00:29:08] Shut the fuck up about that bullshit.

[00:29:10] Whatever.

[00:29:11] Right.

[00:29:11] You know, like that's the that's the thing that you feel like doing every single time.

[00:29:15] Well, and also it's the thing that an ally to any community should be able to do.

[00:29:20] Oh, if there is a direct harm to a person that that will I will always say something to that person harming that person saying something harmful to that person or in front of that person.

[00:29:29] Yeah.

[00:29:30] That will never stop.

[00:29:32] That would have happened no matter what.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:34] But I mean, if there's not somebody directly being harmed in front of you by that talk.

[00:29:40] Well, it becomes it becomes a little.

[00:29:43] For me, it for the way I operate, I try to.

[00:29:49] I like to bring rationality back into a conversation and you can't do that if you're yelling at somebody.

[00:29:54] Right.

[00:29:55] Right off the bat.

[00:29:55] And I just don't want to have a conversation.

[00:29:57] No.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:58] You're you're you're more of the type that would yell at them right off the bat because I don't want to talk about it.

[00:30:02] Right.

[00:30:02] Like, I didn't bring this topic up to you.

[00:30:05] I think everybody has their way of dealing with.

[00:30:08] Yeah.

[00:30:08] Right.

[00:30:08] But the fact is that if you are a liberal in a non liberal area, you have to find a way to deal with it.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:16] Because it's everywhere.

[00:30:18] It's all around you.

[00:30:19] It's in every aspect of your life.

[00:30:21] And it's not just the people you work with.

[00:30:24] It's not just your neighbors, but it's people that are, you know, you work.

[00:30:28] Well, you know, it's everything.

[00:30:30] It's everybody.

[00:30:31] It's all the time.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:32] And it's always somebody you wouldn't even expect.

[00:30:35] Like, Jesus, you're why are you fucking blowing up about this bullshit in front of me?

[00:30:39] Like, I thought you were smart.

[00:30:41] We were talking about Coke or Pepsi.

[00:30:43] And then you start talking about politics.

[00:30:45] Yeah.

[00:30:45] What?

[00:30:46] Like it always like you used to be able to talk about the weather.

[00:30:50] You can't even talk about the fucking weather anymore.

[00:30:52] Right.

[00:30:52] You used to be able to talk about like the price of gas, like, oh, gas so high.

[00:30:56] But then it gets into the taxes and the Middle East and like Jesus Christ.

[00:31:01] And then like we can always talk with my family like, OK, but the Dallas Cowboys, that's a safe topic.

[00:31:07] But no, can't talk about the NFL.

[00:31:10] Right.

[00:31:10] You know, like there literally is no safe topic except for.

[00:31:15] So what black and white TV shows have you guys been watching lately from way back when that you've seen a million times?

[00:31:22] Probably have like questionable.

[00:31:24] Yeah.

[00:31:24] Themes in them.

[00:31:25] I mean, my parents still think that Crocodile Dundee is a fine movie.

[00:31:31] No.

[00:31:32] And that they don't understand.

[00:31:34] What do you mean racism?

[00:31:35] There's no racism in it.

[00:31:36] Yeah.

[00:31:37] And like we literally watched it within the last year.

[00:31:40] It was cringy.

[00:31:41] Because we were like, I know, I remember it being kind of funny, but it's been a long time.

[00:31:45] And I keep hearing people say like, holy shit, that movie is racist.

[00:31:49] I was so ashamed that I have ever liked that movie.

[00:31:52] Yeah.

[00:31:53] Yeah.

[00:31:53] Honestly, like I had no I had no recollection.

[00:31:56] Right.

[00:31:57] Right.

[00:31:57] And to be fair, I grew up in a very small town that was all white.

[00:32:01] And yeah, it was the 80s.

[00:32:03] And I didn't know.

[00:32:05] I'm glad I didn't know anything culturally speaking at that point in time in my life.

[00:32:08] I mean, you know, it was what it was.

[00:32:11] I'm glad we gave it a rewatch so that now we can be like, oh, no, actually.

[00:32:15] Right.

[00:32:16] No.

[00:32:16] Like that.

[00:32:17] It's not good.

[00:32:18] Yeah.

[00:32:19] All right.

[00:32:19] So flat earth videos and MAGA conspiracy theories create a large interconnected work of people

[00:32:28] who reject mainstream narratives in favor of alternative, often baseless explanations.

[00:32:35] Influential figures in the MAGA movement, such as Alex Jones of Infowars.

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:40] I have a friend who just sent me something from Infowars.

[00:32:43] And I was like, I go, I'm not even going to open that is from Infowars.

[00:32:46] Right.

[00:32:47] Sorry.

[00:32:47] That's not a good source.

[00:32:48] Yep.

[00:32:49] Nope.

[00:32:49] They have also played a role in merging these ideologies.

[00:32:53] Oh, absolutely.

[00:32:54] I mean, I kind of consider that.

[00:32:55] Yeah.

[00:32:55] That's social media.

[00:32:56] Right.

[00:32:57] That is what that is.

[00:32:58] Yeah.

[00:32:58] Jones has promoted a variety of conspiracy theories, including anti-vaccine rhetoric,

[00:33:05] flat earth skepticism, and claims about government coverups.

[00:33:08] And you know, the funny thing about him is I don't even believe he believes it.

[00:33:12] No.

[00:33:12] I really don't.

[00:33:13] I know he doesn't.

[00:33:14] It looks, the whole thing looks so put on.

[00:33:16] Yeah.

[00:33:16] You know?

[00:33:17] He's so fake.

[00:33:17] And I'm like, if you are, if you are doing this for money and only money, I mean, you,

[00:33:25] that's almost criminal.

[00:33:26] That's almost criminal.

[00:33:27] It's almost criminal.

[00:33:27] It is criminal.

[00:33:29] And it's almost a reason to believe in God so that I could believe that he would burn

[00:33:33] in fucking hell.

[00:33:36] Like, honestly, like that right there would be the only thing that could make me believe

[00:33:42] in a religion.

[00:33:44] Does it have a hell?

[00:33:46] Want to.

[00:33:46] Does it have a hell that Alex Jones can burn in?

[00:33:49] Right.

[00:33:50] For eternity.

[00:33:51] Yeah.

[00:33:51] For all the harm he has caused.

[00:33:52] I hear you.

[00:33:53] I hear you.

[00:33:53] Yeah.

[00:33:54] Um, his platform provides a space where these disparate ideas can merge and gain credibility

[00:33:59] among an audience already inclined to distrust mainstream sources of information.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:07] Which, yeah, that tracks.

[00:34:08] Right.

[00:34:08] All right.

[00:34:09] Let's talk about the COVID-19 catalyst.

[00:34:11] All right.

[00:34:12] This is where it all comes to a head.

[00:34:14] Like the internet put it all on the table for us.

[00:34:17] Yeah.

[00:34:17] And then the pandemic solidified it.

[00:34:21] That's what cooked it.

[00:34:22] Okay.

[00:34:22] All right.

[00:34:23] So the COVID-19 pandemic served as a critical point of convergence for all these movements.

[00:34:28] Public health measures like lockdowns, mask mandates, and vaccine requirements became

[00:34:33] flashpoints for anti-vaxxers and MAGA supporters alike, both of whom viewed these policies as government

[00:34:40] overreach.

[00:34:41] My parents were in that crowd.

[00:34:43] Yeah.

[00:34:43] Yeah.

[00:34:44] The anti-vax community saw an opportunity to promote their message of vaccine skepticism

[00:34:49] while MAGA supporters began to view public health guidance as yet another attempt by the

[00:34:55] government to control their lives.

[00:34:57] Yep.

[00:34:58] Flat earthers, too, were drawn into the pandemic debates as their underlying distrust of scientific

[00:35:04] institutions aligned with the growing skepticism about COVID-19.

[00:35:10] Sure.

[00:35:10] Both the anti-vax and flat earth movements rejected the science behind the virus and its

[00:35:16] treatments, further linking them to MAGA's anti-government rhetoric.

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:21] So I wondered, but I didn't put, like, I wondered how these movements all came together, all these

[00:35:29] fringe at one point, you know, radical, weird conspiracy theories.

[00:35:36] Like, I wondered how they all came together.

[00:35:37] And I knew the internet played a role in it.

[00:35:39] Sure.

[00:35:39] For some reason, I just didn't tie the pandemic into it as well.

[00:35:44] Well, and it's funny because I actually tie, like, in my mind, when I was younger, the idea

[00:35:51] of anti-establishment, anti-government was more of a liberal idea than it was a conservative

[00:35:56] idea.

[00:35:57] Right.

[00:35:57] But now I definitely view it as a conservative idea.

[00:36:00] Yeah.

[00:36:00] And not a liberal idea.

[00:36:01] Yeah.

[00:36:01] Interesting.

[00:36:02] It's really weird how this is all kind of panned out just in our lifetime.

[00:36:06] Well, I mean, that kind of is reflected in the way that at one point we would have said

[00:36:12] that the Republicans were the party of taking care of your veterans.

[00:36:17] Yeah.

[00:36:17] And the war hawks.

[00:36:19] And yeah.

[00:36:19] And now the Democrats are the ones that are like, not war hawks per se, but.

[00:36:27] But they're definitely they're definitely more solidly supporting the military than the Republicans

[00:36:35] are.

[00:36:35] The Republicans change their mind on a whim on any given day, depending on what the

[00:36:39] political, you know, field is feeling.

[00:36:42] The fact that they are not offended over how Trump has treated the military and said things

[00:36:49] about the dead, people who died for this country, whether I agree with them or not, that sacrifice

[00:36:55] is not forgotten.

[00:36:57] You know, especially as a military kid and somebody who served myself and comes from military on

[00:37:04] all sides of my family, like I have a deep sense of I don't like the military thing, the military

[00:37:13] entity, but I have utmost respect for the people, the soldiers, the airmen, all of those who put

[00:37:22] their lives at risk.

[00:37:23] Absolutely.

[00:37:24] I make a very large distinction between the policies of our government and our military versus the

[00:37:30] servicemen and women who served because they they have served our country.

[00:37:35] They have served us and they have they deserve so much better than they've been given.

[00:37:40] They deserve respect and admiration for what they did.

[00:37:42] Yeah.

[00:37:43] You know, I mean, it's it's debatable on the policies that we do.

[00:37:47] But I don't think it's ever correct to throw the people who are serving into that mix.

[00:37:55] And they oftentimes are serving because it was their only way out of a situation.

[00:38:00] I was going to say most people who enlist like there's a difference between your enlisted

[00:38:06] service members versus your officers.

[00:38:08] Right.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:09] Your officers went to college and were, you know, assisted along with that.

[00:38:16] Right.

[00:38:16] Your enlisted service members are generally speaking from among the lowest of the economic

[00:38:23] stratosphere.

[00:38:24] Yeah.

[00:38:25] And I saw that firsthand as a kid and as a service member myself.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:32] And oftentimes they're pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and making what they can

[00:38:37] out of their life by using, you know, the army, the military.

[00:38:42] Yeah.

[00:38:42] As a as a way to get further ahead in life.

[00:38:46] Yeah.

[00:38:46] And that's that's admirable to me.

[00:38:48] Yeah.

[00:38:48] With regard to anybody by doing what you need to do for taking care of yourself and maybe

[00:38:53] even your family.

[00:38:54] Right.

[00:38:54] You know?

[00:38:54] Yeah.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:55] Like I I'm just appalled that these same people would at one time have, you know, just

[00:39:04] turned on Trump because of the way Trump treats.

[00:39:08] I can't even know the word.

[00:39:09] The whole thing's aggravating.

[00:39:10] It's it's not just aggravating.

[00:39:12] It's personally traumatic for me to see the way these people have like, oh, you really

[00:39:20] didn't ever believe what you believed because you change on a whim.

[00:39:24] You're just that ignorant.

[00:39:26] Right.

[00:39:26] And that makes me sad.

[00:39:28] No.

[00:39:28] What is considered patriotism today is insulting to what I thought I was when I was a kid.

[00:39:32] Totally.

[00:39:33] Totally.

[00:39:33] That is the best way I can describe it because I can't I can't take it like it's not it.

[00:39:38] We've we've talked about this in other podcasts.

[00:39:41] I know.

[00:39:42] But like the way people display flags, they're tattered.

[00:39:45] Yeah.

[00:39:45] That's not correct.

[00:39:47] No.

[00:39:47] Look, I mean, not that that's an important aspect.

[00:39:49] Right.

[00:39:50] But but no, if you're going to be the party that talks about patriotism and flying that

[00:39:54] fucking flag, you made it important.

[00:39:56] Right.

[00:39:56] And there's just certain things that you don't do and you don't disparage service members.

[00:40:00] You don't just, you know.

[00:40:02] Right.

[00:40:02] You.

[00:40:03] I mean, these were bottom of the barrel things that we could agree on at one time.

[00:40:07] Yeah.

[00:40:07] And they they are not agreed upon anymore.

[00:40:09] Right.

[00:40:10] And it's OK to trash someone and ridicule them and their service that they provided

[00:40:18] to our country because of political gain.

[00:40:21] Yeah.

[00:40:21] Apparently, that's OK now.

[00:40:22] And to just show up at Arlington National Cemetery and just whatever.

[00:40:27] Yeah.

[00:40:27] Do whatever the fuck you want is fine.

[00:40:29] Right.

[00:40:29] Like what?

[00:40:30] I just I thought that there was a thing that we agreed on.

[00:40:33] Decorum.

[00:40:34] Decorum.

[00:40:35] Right.

[00:40:35] Right.

[00:40:35] Yeah.

[00:40:35] It doesn't exist.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:37] In conclusion.

[00:40:38] So we're wrapping this up now.

[00:40:40] Yeah.

[00:40:40] I know you were ready.

[00:40:41] I mean, we're about two hours on this episode.

[00:40:44] Oh, geez.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:44] Well, I mean, some of that is like stuff that can be edited out, but whatever.

[00:40:48] No, it's not.

[00:40:50] Only about two minutes is edited.

[00:40:52] Shut your face.

[00:40:53] I'm just saying it's not.

[00:40:55] Yeah.

[00:40:55] The merger of flat earth theory, the anti-vax movement and mega highlights the power of conspiracy

[00:41:02] thinking in modern culture.

[00:41:04] What these movements share is not just a rejection of specific ideas like the round earth vaccines

[00:41:10] or election results.

[00:41:12] So they're not just rejecting ideas, but a broader sense of mistrust in the institutions

[00:41:18] that govern society.

[00:41:20] This mistrust is amplified by social media and influential figures who bring these ideas

[00:41:26] together, creating a feedback loop that reinforces skepticism and deepens polarization.

[00:41:32] And I really appreciate the use of feedback loop there.

[00:41:36] Yeah.

[00:41:36] Because that's what it is.

[00:41:38] Right.

[00:41:38] I tell you and then you tell me back.

[00:41:41] And then that confirms what I believed in the first place.

[00:41:43] Absolutely.

[00:41:44] As these movements continue to interact and grow, they pose real world challenges to public

[00:41:50] health, scientific literacy and social cohesion.

[00:41:54] Understanding the roots and connections between these ideologies is essential for addressing

[00:41:59] the impact they have on society today, which is what we've talked a lot about here today.

[00:42:06] For listeners of our podcast, these developments offer a clear example of how skepticism, often

[00:42:13] unchecked by critical thinking and evidence, can spiral into dangerous territory where facts

[00:42:19] become secondary to belief.

[00:42:21] Okay.

[00:42:22] The end.

[00:42:23] How'd you like my essay?

[00:42:24] That's great.

[00:42:25] Yeah.

[00:42:25] That's great.

[00:42:25] Yeah.

[00:42:26] I, I, I think it was a really good discussion.

[00:42:29] I think that it's something that we are going to have to grapple with as a nation very,

[00:42:33] very soon.

[00:42:35] And it's becoming, it's becoming harder and harder to distinguish reality from fake, you

[00:42:40] know?

[00:42:41] And, and, and I'm not just speaking, speaking with regard to the videos, like the deep videos

[00:42:46] and stuff.

[00:42:46] Just with the, um, inundation of the amount of disinformation.

[00:42:52] Yeah.

[00:42:53] It's becoming almost too hard to counter the amount of disinformation just due to the sheer

[00:43:00] volume of it.

[00:43:01] Right.

[00:43:01] Right.

[00:43:02] It's, it's a natural form of the sea lioning effect, which is just burying you in information

[00:43:08] so that you can't possibly.

[00:43:10] Right.

[00:43:11] Like, where do I even start?

[00:43:13] Yeah.

[00:43:13] No, absolutely.

[00:43:14] And, and, and it's, it's bigger than just what it's bigger than just your, your, your

[00:43:21] neighbor who doesn't understand that these things aren't true.

[00:43:25] It's, it's this idea that we are two separate people in this country, one who wants to learn

[00:43:32] and one who thinks that the people that are wanting us to learn are evil.

[00:43:36] Right.

[00:43:37] Right.

[00:43:37] And it's not just like a difference of opinion.

[00:43:39] Like I learn, I want to learn and you don't the end, right?

[00:43:43] No, it's, you are fucking evil.

[00:43:46] And we're like, whoa.

[00:43:47] Right.

[00:43:47] Well, and that's where I was going.

[00:43:48] It's not just that.

[00:43:50] It's that there are, there are actual, you know, political forces and, and, and nefarious

[00:43:57] foreign forces that are trying to wedge this divide further and further apart in our country

[00:44:03] to cause problems for us.

[00:44:05] Yeah.

[00:44:06] And that, that is the scariest thing to me.

[00:44:09] Like the, the part that, the, the bit where we are, we are walking dangerously close to

[00:44:15] a point at which we can't really recover.

[00:44:18] Right.

[00:44:19] Is, is a scary thought to have, you know?

[00:44:22] And, and I'm not saying that that's what's happening or going to happen, but there's a

[00:44:27] lot of us in, in the, in this world that think that if Trump gets into office, that it could

[00:44:33] go down that road, you know?

[00:44:35] And again, sooner more than later, I'm not talking about this in like, this is a conspiracy

[00:44:39] theory.

[00:44:39] I'm talking about this in that, you know, there's literally like project 2025.

[00:44:43] There's, you know, all these things that are, they're going to take a lot of these, these

[00:44:47] conspiracy theories or these religious ideas, and they're going to push them to the forefront

[00:44:52] of society because these people are so scared of reality.

[00:44:58] Right.

[00:44:58] And that I just, I, we have to do something about this.

[00:45:02] We have to.

[00:45:03] Yeah.

[00:45:03] That's all I got.

[00:45:04] I mean, I, I guess I can sum this up, um, by a conversation I had with my mom recently,

[00:45:11] like two weeks ago.

[00:45:13] Yeah.

[00:45:13] Um, she said, you know, I don't understand why just because, um, somebody is a Democrat

[00:45:21] and I'm a Republican, why we can't still, you know, talk to each other and be friends

[00:45:25] and blah, blah, blah.

[00:45:26] Like, what does politics have to do with anything?

[00:45:28] And I said, mom, that's disingenuous.

[00:45:30] And you know it.

[00:45:31] And she was like, what?

[00:45:32] And I go, your political affiliation at this point, it might not always have been true,

[00:45:38] which clearly it wasn't, but nowadays your political affiliation is not just who you're

[00:45:45] voting for.

[00:45:45] It reflects your values as a person.

[00:45:48] Yeah.

[00:45:48] And she goes, what do you mean by that?

[00:45:49] And I said, if somebody walks up to me and says, I'm Republican, that tells me many, many

[00:45:53] things.

[00:45:54] It tells me you're very likely Christian.

[00:45:56] Very likely.

[00:45:57] Yeah.

[00:45:57] It tells me you're anti-abortion, which means that you're generally, and yeah, these are

[00:46:03] all general, but they're also often true.

[00:46:05] Right.

[00:46:05] You know?

[00:46:05] Yeah.

[00:46:05] Um, and so if you're a Christian and you're anti-abortion, you're probably not for, um,

[00:46:13] women's bodily autonomy.

[00:46:14] And so you probably are not for healthcare, um, provisions for, um, you know, um, abortion

[00:46:23] when it's necessary health wise and has nothing to do with like wanting to end a pregnancy.

[00:46:29] So I'm going to stop you here just, just a bit, because there's a lot of these conversations

[00:46:35] that are very nuanced.

[00:46:38] And just because someone's Republican, especially I'm going to, I'm going to go back to like

[00:46:42] the...

[00:46:42] I'm being judgmental.

[00:46:43] I will straight up tell you that.

[00:46:45] I understand.

[00:46:46] I, I, I just, I want to pull you back just a little bit because...

[00:46:50] Well, let me finish my list though.

[00:46:51] Okay.

[00:46:52] Okay.

[00:46:52] Because this was a question about why can't I as a, as a Democrat be friends with a Republican.

[00:46:59] Right.

[00:46:59] Now, if somebody is a Republican and tells me that they don't actually feel these ways

[00:47:04] about these things, that's different.

[00:47:06] But generally speaking, I'm going to judge right off that you belong to a party that's

[00:47:10] racist.

[00:47:11] You belong to a party that is promoting, um, a leader who is trying to bring Nazism and fascism

[00:47:20] into vogue.

[00:47:22] You belong to a party.

[00:47:23] So even if you don't believe these things, your party does and your party helped pave the

[00:47:29] way.

[00:47:29] You belong to a party that is racist, homophobic, and sexist.

[00:47:34] So even if you are the perfect person who doesn't believe any of those things, why the

[00:47:41] fuck are you a Republican then?

[00:47:43] No, I, I, what I was going to pull you back about is, is more about the nuance of those

[00:47:47] discussions.

[00:47:48] So when you're talking to someone who's Republican and they're pro, um, life as opposed to, you

[00:47:54] know, pro choice, you mean pro, um, pro blocking abortion.

[00:47:59] Yeah.

[00:48:00] They're not pro life because pro life.

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:02] No, I apologize.

[00:48:02] I didn't mean to.

[00:48:03] I, I'm used to the terminology from years ago.

[00:48:06] So, and I apologize because pro life would mean that you support school lunches and shit

[00:48:10] like that.

[00:48:10] No, I completely agree with that.

[00:48:12] Okay.

[00:48:12] But again, that discussion, you're, you're having a discussion with somebody that believes

[00:48:18] that people abort babies after they're born.

[00:48:21] Yeah.

[00:48:21] Which, you know what I mean?

[00:48:22] No, no, I mean, no, I know.

[00:48:24] I've heard people say that and I'm like, but that is literally nonsense.

[00:48:27] Right.

[00:48:27] Nonsensical.

[00:48:28] And you're talking to people who don't understand that most late term abortions are medically

[00:48:33] necessary.

[00:48:33] Yeah.

[00:48:34] Right.

[00:48:34] Right.

[00:48:34] You're talking to people who literally don't understand what they're talking about.

[00:48:39] Yeah.

[00:48:39] Right.

[00:48:39] Okay.

[00:48:40] So I guess my point is this, and this, this is always kind of where I come from versus

[00:48:46] where you come from.

[00:48:47] And that's that if you sit down with that person and pull everything apart, right?

[00:48:52] Right.

[00:48:52] And if you have the patience to do that, like you do, that is awesome.

[00:48:56] But I don't oftentimes we're a lot closer on viewpoints than we give credit for.

[00:49:04] And, and the, the problem in my opinion is more about the polarization of ideas right now

[00:49:10] than it is about the actual ideas because the ideas are just ideas and the ideas can be

[00:49:16] talked through and worked through.

[00:49:17] If we have a society that is able to do that, the problem is we don't right now.

[00:49:22] Right.

[00:49:23] Well, for one thing, I'm not built for that.

[00:49:28] I'm just not.

[00:49:29] I don't know if that's a character defect or if it's a part of my adult late diagnosis

[00:49:36] autism, or if it's just, I'm an impatient bitch.

[00:49:40] Like it could be any of those things.

[00:49:42] And I believe you, but I'm not built for that.

[00:49:45] I get it.

[00:49:45] I just didn't want to alienate everybody because I don't think that everybody deserves alienation

[00:49:50] for being a Republican.

[00:49:51] And no, I don't either.

[00:49:54] But I am trying to explain why my mom's belief that, but we can all be friends.

[00:50:01] Like if you are against me and my family and my friends and you are voting on purpose for

[00:50:10] policies that hurt me and my family and my friends, if you are part of a party and you

[00:50:17] are voting so that my, my gay friends have to not be married anymore, that's harmful.

[00:50:25] I'm going to, I'm going to challenge you a little bit here.

[00:50:26] So you, you just said those words, but then, so why did we go to your parents?

[00:50:32] I'll have to chew on that.

[00:50:34] I'm not, I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

[00:50:36] I am trying to put you on the spot.

[00:50:37] No, and that, that is fine.

[00:50:38] I'll have to chew on it, but it is to be fair, something that I chew on all the fucking time

[00:50:43] because I have said multiple times too, that I don't have any other Republicans in my life.

[00:50:50] I make the one exception for my parents and it fucking kills me.

[00:50:54] Right.

[00:50:55] So I don't have a good answer to that.

[00:50:58] Other than that, they're my parents, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to invite new people

[00:51:04] in.

[00:51:04] No, I'm not asking you to.

[00:51:06] I'm saying that there obviously are some redeeming qualities about your parents, regardless

[00:51:12] of all their views.

[00:51:13] And in so far as they're the way they treat our child in a personal relationship, the way

[00:51:20] they help you in a personal relationship, the way they act around us in a personal relationship,

[00:51:25] the way that they actually respect our wants to not talk about politics and these things

[00:51:32] very often.

[00:51:32] They don't always live up to that, but generally they do try.

[00:51:36] And that's why I make the exception.

[00:51:39] But the question my mom asked was, why can't we go be friends with people from the opposite

[00:51:48] political spectrum?

[00:51:49] Right.

[00:51:49] And the answer is because you believe like my mom basically was asking a politics question.

[00:51:56] And so I answered it with a politics answer.

[00:51:58] But your mom hasn't learned that society changed from when she was a kid.

[00:52:02] But she just she has been slowly wedged to the right.

[00:52:06] Right.

[00:52:07] But that's why I said, you know, this may not always have been true, but now your politics

[00:52:15] definitely indicate your values.

[00:52:18] No, I I'm just saying she doesn't know that.

[00:52:21] Well, she knew it when I said it.

[00:52:23] She didn't seem to not know it.

[00:52:25] And I did present the opposite side.

[00:52:28] I was like, you say you want to be friends with a Democrat, but like I don't wear any upside

[00:52:35] down crosses to your house.

[00:52:37] Like if you were walking around down the street and somebody had, you know, I support Satan

[00:52:46] and praise Satan and all that.

[00:52:48] You're telling me that you want to go be friends with them because I don't believe you.

[00:52:51] Right.

[00:52:51] Like I just don't.

[00:52:53] And that that's more religion than politics.

[00:52:57] But the religion informs their politics.

[00:52:59] Sure.

[00:53:00] And if somebody is walking around saying I have 15 abortion abortions a day and I love

[00:53:06] it, you're not going to go be friends with them.

[00:53:08] Right.

[00:53:08] That's obviously I saw I did see that on a T-shirt.

[00:53:12] It was, you know, like ha ha ha thumb at what Republicans believe that Democrats are doing.

[00:53:22] We're just, you know, I love having abortions.

[00:53:24] It's just the funnest thing ever.

[00:53:25] I eat 100 babies per day and abort 15 of them, you know, all the time.

[00:53:30] Yeah.

[00:53:31] Right.

[00:53:31] Yeah.

[00:53:32] I was just like, if you saw somebody wearing that T-shirt, you would not go up to them and

[00:53:37] say, let's be friends.

[00:53:39] Right.

[00:53:39] And that's all I meant.

[00:53:42] I gotcha.

[00:53:43] Well, I don't think we're going to solve this world problem tonight.

[00:53:46] So.

[00:53:46] No.

[00:53:47] But it was a good discussion.

[00:53:49] Yeah.

[00:53:49] And I appreciated it.

[00:53:50] I think it's a discussion that needs to be had more often.

[00:53:54] Yeah.

[00:53:55] And we need to we need to not let it leave our line of sight.

[00:54:00] Sure.

[00:54:00] With regard to our society.

[00:54:01] Sure.

[00:54:02] I mean, me and you can't even figure it out between us.

[00:54:05] No.

[00:54:05] We're on the same side.

[00:54:06] Right.

[00:54:06] Yeah.

[00:54:07] Obviously.

[00:54:09] All right.

[00:54:10] I thank you, everybody, for sticking here with us for this entire episode.

[00:54:14] If you if you did make it to this point.

[00:54:15] Right.

[00:54:15] Right.

[00:54:17] And I really I really hope you put some thought into this for yourself and think about what

[00:54:23] what we can do as a society to change to help this get better, I guess.

[00:54:29] Yeah.

[00:54:29] And that that's that's where we need to to go with it.

[00:54:32] I think.

[00:54:33] Yeah.

[00:54:33] Is find a way to make this better.

[00:54:35] Oh.

[00:54:38] All right, guys.

[00:54:39] Bye.

[00:54:40] Bye.