Daniel Chapter 4: Bible Study by Atheists

Daniel Chapter 4

Wife: Husband.

Husband: Wife.

Wife: Hello.

Husband: Hi, we're back.

Wife: Hi. Welcome back.

Husband: Yeah, we had a bit of a meltdown on our computer. It took a crap and then we had to order parts and it took forever. And now we're back a week later.

Wife: And you know what we're gonna do?

Husband: We're gonna continue where we left off.

Wife: Well, yes, but we're gonna pretend that, episodes, well, I don't know the episode number, but Daniel, chapters one, two and three.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: That those just now were Monday, Tuesday.

Husband: And we're just picking right up. Right back up. Yeah. Right. So, like, this is Thursday last week.

Wife: Yep.

Husband: Instead of Thursday this week.

Wife: No, those were this week.

Husband: Oh, okay.

Wife: We never took a week off. So since we just read Daniel chapter three yesterday, do you remember what happened and where the hell we are?

Husband: Well, I remember there was a golden dildo. A giant golden dildo.

Wife: I don't recall that.

Husband: Yeah, there was a giant statue. Made. The giant golden statue.

Wife: And they wouldn't bow to it.

Husband: Yeah, okay. Exactly. And then, and then the, three, three guys, Shadrach, me and Abednego.

Wife: Why can't we just say, Daniel's homies?

Husband: Yeah, those guys.

Husband: they got thrown into a fire by Nebuchadnezzar. And they lived because God.

Wife: No, because when, Nebuchadnezzar looked into the furnace, door, window or something, a, he didn't get burned up, even though his guards did. And b, he saw the, like, shadowy golden image of, fourth guy, which is God, question mark.

Husband: Sure. Or, you know, angel of the Lord, whatever they want to call it. But then, you know, we just, got done reading prior to that, how, Nebuchadnezzar was like saying how this God was all powerful because Daniel was able to interpret his dream and know his dream. So that happened the chapter prior to this last one. And then in this one, he's throwing people in the fire because they worship this other God.

Wife: And then because they wouldn't bow.

Husband: Because they wouldn't bow to his God.

Wife: To his precious little dildo statue.

Husband: Right, right. And so when that happened and he saw that they lived and some God or angel or whatever saved them.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: He, he then said that this God was the most powerful God. Again.

Wife: Yep. Again, he relearned his lesson.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: So he's like, oh, yeah, I forgot.

Husband: The amount of times that he's learned that this God is the most powerful God kind of detracts from the idea that he's learned that this God is the most powerful God.

Wife: Right.

Husband: But that's just my opinion.

Wife: I mean, he is babylonian. You know about those Babylonians. He certainly was no chaldean.

Husband: Right.

Wife: He comes from his mom's side of the family, you know.

Husband: Yeah. Yeah. So, that was the. That was the gist of Daniel chapter three.

Wife: It sure was.

Husband: And we're really happy to be back on our regular schedule. That never, never didn't, never deviated. Right? Yeah, just go with that.

Wife: Yep.

Husband: and so today we're gonna be.

Wife: Reading Daniel chapter four.

Husband: All. Ah, right. Let's do this.

Wife: Okey dokey. All right. We are hopping into big D or.

Husband: Danny boy or Daniel.

Wife: Yes. Ah, chapter four.

Husband: Yes.

Wife: And before we start, I wanted to, say a couple things. first, a reminder, since I know we just read this yesterday, but, you know, just a refresher. This book is divided into two parts. We are in the first part, which is, comprising chapters one through six. And that is a set of six court tales. So it's like Daniel's time at court, except for chapter three where he didn't show up at all.

Husband: Right.

Wife: And then the second part is chapters seven through twelve, which are for apocalyptic visions.

Husband: Right.

Wife: And speaking of apocalyptic, that gets me into, I need to clarify something because, I used the word apocryphal and apocalyptic, in confusing ways, and I don't think I totally knew what the fuck.

Husband: I was talking about in the last episode.

Wife: In one of the previous episodes.

Husband: Right.

Wife: Yeah. So, an apocryphal story is one that is considered, like, secret or missing or, it's one that's been kept out of the Bible, out of the canon specifically. or that would be in general, but with regard to the Bible, it's been left out of the Bible.

Husband: Right, right.

Wife: I. So, there are some stories that belong in the book of Daniel that are apocryphal in that they're left out.

Husband: Right.

Wife: Okay. Now, having said that, the book of Daniel is considered an apocalyptic tale because it has those apocalyptic visions.

Husband: Right? Right.

Wife: So, and, there are other, books of the Bible. Like the book of Revelation is one that we happen to know as, an apocalyptic story. I mean, just kind of gleaned that from, you know, what we know of the Book of Revelation. So, the story of Daniel, the book of Daniel is an apocalyptic vision. There are tales that were left out of this apocalyptic vision, therefore they are apocryphal. So one might say that those three stories that were left out are both apocryphal and apocalyptic.

Husband: Okay. Okay. Well, are they, though? Like, do you know that those stories.

Wife: Are apocalyptic or they're a part of the apocalyptic book? I don't know if those stories in and of themselves are apocalyptic visions.

Husband: Okay. Okay.

Wife: So that is a good point. I don't know whether they'd fall into the, court tales or the, visions.

Husband: Right. And that's what I was just curious about, because I don't know anything about those extra books of Daniel, so.

Wife: Me neither. I don't even know if Daniel's in them.

Husband: Right, right.

Wife: So, just wanted to clarify that there is a difference between apocryphal and apocalyptic and that I may or may not have used them interchangeably and, never listened to me. So there's that. All right. So.

Husband: But no, listen to us all the time, right? Every day, all the time. No, except for when we take a week off and didn't and still haven't.

Wife: When I say don't listen to me, I just mean don't trust me. Always listen to our podcast. Never trust a goddamn thing we say. I mean, basically.

Husband: Well, no, I think. Look, we endeavor to find the right information, and we always try to come back with the correct information. And I think that because we're going through this for our first time and we're trying to figure this out kind of on the fly. Right. We're not doing a lot of research up front. Right.

Wife: I do very mild research, and I don't always catch the full meaning or impact of certain words.

Husband: And this has been, from the very get go, meant to be a very first take glance at the Bible from, the perspective of us who are. It's our first time reading it.

Wife: Right.

Husband: And we're atheists. Right.

Wife: And we ain't got no college between us. Just kidding.

Husband: Entirely true.

Wife: I know. I'm just kidding. We do have some college. I was just, you know, saying we're like the everyman.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: That's all.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: So this, chapter Daniel, chapter four gets, into Nebuchadnezzar's madness.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: And I have sent you a picture that is creepy af that. y'all should go take a look at this picture. husband is going to put it in different places.

Husband: I don't know where he's going to try. I can't really do it in the show notes. I don't think.

Wife: No, I don't think you can post it in the show notes.

Husband: I'm not really sure where I'm putting it yet.

Wife: Okay, well, I will talk about it again. At the end of this and let you know what it's called and everything so that you can, try to go find it. it's not hard, actually. If you.

Husband: It'd be easier to find a link to it. And then I'll try to put a link to a picture.

Wife: I didn't even think of that.

Husband: The easiest way to do it.

Wife: I didn't even think of that. Like, if you go to Wikipedia and just, type in Daniel four. Okay, Daniel chapter four is what that is. And it comes up in that, because it's a, ah, rendition, of, what nebuchadnezzar, might have looked like. M so it's.

Husband: I saw the picture. That's really creepy and weird.

Wife: Yes. Isn't it, though?

Husband: Why would he look like that?

Wife: I don't know. Let's find out.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: Yeah, yeah. I saw that when I was, doing my notes, and I was like, why is he.

Husband: He's human, right?

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: I mean, he's just a guy.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: Some dude.

Wife: It's very weird.

Husband: Who builds 60 foot dildos, right? Yeah.

Wife: Yeah. Ah.

Husband: Golden ones.

Wife: I mean, this picture is not cool, right? It doesn't. He does not look okay in that image.

Husband: No, he doesn't.

Wife: All right, so let's read this.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: King Nebuchadnezzar. To the nations and peoples of every language who live in all the earth.

Wife: and this is a letter, by the way. Oh, I forgot to say that.

Husband: Nebuchadnezzar. Or what's the letter from? What?

Wife: This chapter is presented in the form of a letter from King Nebuchadnezzar.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: Okay.

Husband: Yeah, yeah.

Wife: I forgot to mention that. Sorry. May you prosper greatly. It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the most high God has performed for me. So something has happened to Nebuchadnezzar, and he's like, y'all hang on, hang on. Wait.

Husband: Suddenly he's a believer?

Wife: Yeah, yeah.

Husband: Like, like the monkeys or whatever.

Wife: Like the monkeys.

Husband: I'm a believer. Isn't that the monkeys?

Wife: no. You're thinking of the song in Shrek, right? I believe. Yeah, yeah, that is not the monkeys.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: Yeah.

Wife: I'm not sure what song you're thinking of by the monkeys.

Husband: Hey, hey, I'm.

Husband: Yeah, no, that's. I don't know. I don't know.

Wife: I don't either. Okay. Anyways, how great are his signs, how mighty his wonders? His kingdom is an eternal kingdom. His dominion endures from generation to generation. So he is like.

Husband: Then he's all in.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: He's like.

Wife: He's committed. He's like, y'all just wait till I do it.

Husband: The dream thing, you know, that was, living through the fire. That did it.

Wife: Yeah. The walk in the fire.

Husband: He's writing a letter.

Wife: He's writing a letter to all his buddies. And, I mean, who does a king hang out with but other kings and high officials, right?

Husband: And, you would think that if he thought this, that he would maybe let them, the Israelites, go. You would think if he really thought this, God was, like, this badass, right?

Wife: I didn't know. Here. You can have your shit back. I don't want that guy.

Husband: I'm not gonna fuck with you.

Wife: Right? Ooh. I. Nebuchadnezzar was at home in my palace, contented and prosperous. You know, I was just hanging around as I do, like, whatever, all innocent and kingly.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: I had a dream that made me afraid. As I was lying in bed, the images and visions that passed through my mind terrified me. So I commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be brought before me to interpret the dream for me. So he's recapping what happened when the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners came. I told them the dream, but they could not interpret it for me. And that is not what happened.

Husband: Right. He told them they had to know what the dream was.

Wife: Yeah. He did not tell them his dream. He told them he had a dream. Tell me what my dream is and tell me what the fuck it means.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: So already it's, not correct. It's not correct. Y'all wrote that shit wrong. Finally, Daniel came into my presence, you know? Cause I made him.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: And I told him the dream.

Husband: That's not entirely true either. He. When. When Daniel came into his presence, it was. Cause Daniel requested to see him.

Wife: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But listen to this. I told him the dream. No, but you didn't, though, right? Oh, my God. Unless this is a different dream. But I can't imagine.

Husband: Right. Why? That doesn't make any sense.

Wife: He is called Belteshazzar, you know? Cause we're.

Husband: So he's admitting that this God is the all powerful, all seeing, knowing God. Right. And yet he's not referring to Daniel by his, given name, from his hebrew name. He's referring to them by the name that he gave him.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: Which sounds like he doesn't really respect this God. in that statement alone.

Wife: I don't know. Listen to this. He's called Belteshazzar, after the name of my God. And the spirit of the holy gods is in him. So he's basically like this, is his way of showing respect, even though it is disrespectful.

Husband: Right.

Wife: So does he disrespect? I don't know.

Husband: Got it. Got it.

Wife: Okay. I said, I said beltejazzar. Big D. Chief of the magicians. I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream. Interpret it for me.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: These are, the visions I saw while lying in bed. I looked and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous, you know, as a tree does.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the skydehe trees do.

Husband: What constitutes touching the sky? Wouldn't anything off of the ground kind of be the sky to. It's a matter of perspective, right?

Husband: If you're an ant, the sky is just right there, like at our ankle. But if you're a human, obviously it's a little bit higher.

Wife: It's kind of like, where does sky end and space begin, right?

Husband: Yeah. It's all about how you perceive it.

Wife: So, like, and if you live in the mountains, are you in the skyd? No, you're still on earth. But I don't know, I feel like.

Husband: You might m. I mean, I hiked in the mountains once and I was above the clouds, so I mean, I guess maybe I touched the sky.

Wife: Okay, and what about an airplane? If it's hovering, it's not on the ground. But it's hovering above the ground. Is it in the sky? It's not on earth.

Husband: Yeah, I don't know.

Wife: I don't know. Right, right. That's one of those questions that keep you up at night kind of things.

Husband: Not me.

Wife: No. But it's like shower thoughts. All right. Velociraptor. You know velociraptor.

Husband: Right, right.

Wife: Okay. Anyway, the tree touched the sky or whatever it was visible to the ends of the earth. Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it was the wild. Oh, I messed that up. Let me try reading that again. Under it, the wild animals found shelter and the birds lived in its branches. From it, every creature was fed. What is this dream?

Husband: Because I remember like a statue that was made of a bunch of different.

Wife: It must be a different dream.

Husband: I guess so.

Wife: Okay, maybe he did tell him his dream.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: I just.

Husband: This is really? This, this whole book so far has been very disjointed with regard to the story stories and how they kind of,

Wife: Don't connect.

Husband: Right. Yeah.

Wife: They're like chapter one, one story in and of itself.

Husband: They're kind of well told stories, but they're not. They're not together. Right.

Wife: They don't have transitions. And an editor would send it back and say, you need to write transitional scenes.

Husband: Even the fact, like, it's not so much that it doesn't have transitions, it doesn't have any continuity. There's no, Like, this story doesn't relate to the other dream story that we learned about, which I would have assumed it would have been about.

Wife: Ah.

Husband: The last story doesn't acknowledge the fact that he already acknowledged that God is the most God of high. And here he's writing the letter about God being the most biggest God, best God. But it's not about the wine, the time, either of the other times that.

Wife: He acknowledged that it's an entirely different stream.

Husband: This is all kind of fucked up. Like, as far as, This is really weird.

Wife: Yeah. I don't know. It is interesting.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: In the visions I saw while lying in bed, I looked, and there before me was a holy one, a messenger coming down from heaven. He called in a loud voice, cut down the tree and trim off its branches. Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground in the grass of the field. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven. This is still the guy talking. Okay.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: And let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth. Let his mind. I gotta tell you, I gotta interrupt myself here. If this happened in my dream, I could not wake up and tell you this whole speech. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'd be like, I don't know. He said something like, cut that shit down. And, I don't know, feed the animals with the fruit.

Husband: I'm not gonna. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna say this. I have had. I had a friend that I remember from high school that was able to, like, in detail, recount his, dreams that he had, like, from the previous night.

Wife: Okay.

Husband: And he would tell us the whole thing.

Wife: Oh, no, no, no. I don't have a problem with him remembering everything that happened.

Husband: Okay?

Wife: I am having a problem with the whole. And then he said a speech, and I'm gonna recount for you the speech that he said.

Husband: Right.

Wife: And it's like a word for word thing.

Husband: Got it.

Wife: Like, that's what I mean. I would not be able to deliver that speech to you.

Husband: Got it.

Wife: I would have to summarize it in two way.

Husband: I think we're supposed to assume that this is, you know, imprinted from God, right.

Wife: Seared into his brain. All right. In gold, sparkling letters. All right. Let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth. Let his mind be changed from that of a man, and let him be given the mind of an animal till seven times pass by for him.

Husband: Seven.

Wife: Seven, yeah, always seven.

Husband: Right.

Wife: That would be why he looks weird as fuck in that picture.

Husband: Got it.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: The decision is announced by messengers. The holy ones declare the verdict so that the living may know that the most high is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me what it means for, none of the wise men in my kingdom can interpret it for me, but you can, because the spirit of the holy gods is in you. I got that in me. All right.

Husband: Again, they had their own gods in Babylon, and this, none of this tracks. This just does not sit well with me as something that could have even, like, remotely happened.

Wife: I'm going to push back on that just a little bit in that they might, like, many of them might have looked on the gods as personal, and so, like, our God, my God, is different from y'all's God and your personal God, so they recognized that each of them had different gods. You know what I mean? Yeah, I guess it wasn't until, like, the, what, are they called, the Hebrews took over and were like, no, there's only one, though. And then, like, later on, you know, and then the Christians were like, yeah, totally. There's only fucking one. There's only one, goddamn it, ever. There never was any other.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: So, they, prior to that, they recognized that, you know, we have our God over here in this corner of the world, y'all have yours, and then, you know, you might pass somebody on the road.

Husband: And I'm nothing. I'm not even getting at that. I'm saying that the acclaim, that he is giving to this God when he's got his own God that they worship seems excessive. It seems too much. It seems that he's giving too much credit to this God when he was. This is a guy who they are claiming was building 60 foot statues for his God, right? And doing sacrifices and doing all these different things, right? And all of a sudden we're supposed to believe that he is this, like, he's just prostrating himself and he's writing letters because he is so enamored with this other God that has proved itself to him. I just don't buy it, that's all. He literally just conquered these people. And this just sounds like some propaganda bullshit is what it sounds like.

Wife: True. True.

Husband: I mean, especially because it's so disjointed.

Wife: The. The winners did write the book after all.

Husband: yeah. Right, right.

Wife: All right. So then Daniel, also called Belteshazzar, was greatly perplexed for a time and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you.

Husband: Okay?

Wife: I mean, if you were Daniel, wouldn't you be like, the hell you say? You don't know what it is, right? You don't get to be like, don't be afraid.

Husband: Right? Yeah. You wouldn't be asking for my interpretation if you knew what it meant. So what the fuck, man?

Wife: Yeah. My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries. The tree you saw, which grew large and strong with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, with beautiful. You know that one? Yeah, that one. With beautiful leaves. I'm gonna redescribe it to you. With beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the wild animals and having nesting places its branches.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: For the birds. You know that one?

Husband: Yes.

Wife: Okay. Your majesty. M your majesty.

Husband: Yes.

Wife: You are that tree. Your majesty. That's. I was having a hard time with majesty and tree. Right, because he says, your majesty, you are that tree.

Husband: Got it.

Wife: So I would call him your majesty.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: That's just fun, right? Okay. Sorry. You have become great and strong. Your greatness has shown. No. Has grown until it reaches the sky. and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: I don't think he touches the sky.

Husband: I mean, they're just saying he's great, right?

Wife: You so great.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: You're a fucking tree guy.

Husband: Yeah. We're talking about a fucking dream here, so whatever.

Wife: Look how you be. So tree, your majesty saw a holy one, a messenger coming down from heaven.

Husband: I.

Wife: And saying, and I'm going to tell you again what he said. I'm going to describe your dream back to you.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: Okay. Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump bound with iron and bronze and the grass of the field while its roots remain in the ground.

Husband: Hold on.

Wife: What?

Husband: Iron and bronze? Yeah, that was part of the original dream that we heard back in that. That earlier chapter, remember? Because they left the bits at the bottom that were, Well, no ceramic or. It was like clay. and steel.

Wife: it was clay and steel or no, iron.

Husband: Yeah, because we talked about how I used to hate iron and then it started representing other things later on. But anyway, it sounds like maybe it's like a. This is like an offshoot of the same story. Yeah, this is some other branch of it.

Wife: I mean, keep in mind, too, that these stories were picked up from various sources.

Husband: Yeah, no, they were not.

Wife: Just, like, lying around already stuck.

Husband: That's what I'm trying to draw attention to, is that this is probably.

Husband: Essentially the same story, just different versions of it that were out there.

Wife: Right. That's true. See, what they should have done is, like, combined them so that it was one story, you know?

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: Like, dude told me what it meant and then. So this is what we did.

Husband: I do find it really interesting that even in this modern age, that there are so many, blatant contradictions that are left in the Bible that they just don't. Correct. Because it's always been there. Right, right. We know people, scholars know that these things are not, you know, it draws attention to the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the Bible. Right. And so why would we leave them in there? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Wife: Mm. Because these are words that were exchanged, thousands of years ago, but they're.

Husband: Stories that somebody created thousands of years ago, is what it is, and they wrote them down. And then we're supposed. The part that bothers me is that essentially a lot of this stuff is said to be the word of God or the directions from God or whatever, but when we're talking about two different things that are kind of the same thing but not matching in any way whatsoever, that really, really detracts from that message. That's all.

Wife: No, I agree. You're right. Okay, so I'm still describing to you what happened in your dream. Cut down the tree and destroy it. But leave the stump bound with iron and bronze in the grass of the field while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven. Doo doo. Let him live with the wild animals until seven times pass by for him.

Husband: Seven.

Wife: seven.

Husband: Yep.

Wife: Yep. This is the interpretation. Your majesty. Majesty, if you will and this is the decree the most high has issued against my lord the king. You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animal.

Husband: No, no, not that.

Wife: You will eat a grass like the ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven. please don't hit me. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the most high is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.

Husband: I just want to. I want to make one small note here, because we say things about it all the time, but we don't talk about it a lot anymore. But the number seven has popped up so many times throughout the Bible, as well as 40. And there's a couple of, like. There's some numbers that just, like, twelve is another one.

Wife: They just have.

Husband: They, like, there's these certain numbers that just always pop into.

Wife: That's why people. People love patterns and specific numbers. Made it easier to, remember the stories.

Husband: Right.

Wife: Verbally. And these were originally oral stories, a lot of them.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: So there's that end now coming at it from the other end. Where we are today. People love patterns. So they look at those numbers and try to ascribe meaning to it.

Husband: Right, right.

Wife: And that's where you get your numerologists and your angel numbers and shit like that.

Husband: Yeah. I just didn't want to keep making fun of it without saying something about it.

Wife: Yeah. It's seven for me, dog. The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots in case I'm still Daniel telling the kingdom that, you know, he's gonna go mad or whatever, means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that heaven rules. Heaven rules, man.

Husband: Hence, he's writing this letter.

Wife: Yeah. Therefore, your majesty, be pleased to accept my advice. Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue.

Husband: Mmm m. Okay.

Wife: All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. You know, me, the letter writer, right? Me, I'm writing this. Okay? Twelve months later, as the king, me was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon. He I, the king said, is not this the great babylon I have built as the royal residence by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty? Look at my shit. My shit is so big. Did you see how my dick was just hanging there? So huge.

Husband: Okay, I'm not really, I'm not understanding what's going on here exactly.

Wife: He's being boastful.

Husband: Yeah, but, like, that's not good with God, right?

Wife: He's gonna get in trouble.

Husband: Okay. Okay.

Wife: Yeah. All right. I mean, even as the words were on his lips, a voice came from heaven. You're a fool. You're so fucking stupid. I specifically told you don't say that shit.

Husband: Right.

Wife: This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar. This is the voice from heaven.

Husband: In his letter?

Wife: Yeah. In his letter, your royal authority. Boom. Has been taken from you. It doesn't say boom, but I thought.

Husband: It would be fun. Nice touch.

Wife: You, King Nebuchadnezzar, will be driven away from the people and will live with the wild animals. You will eat grass like the, oxyde.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the most high is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.

Husband: We've talked about this before, too. This story sounds very similar to the whole Moses and pharaoh story. Yeah, like the seven and the things and the. You know, like, I think we talked about this during his first dream because there was some correlation between the exodus story and this story. And it feels like these, writings that are being done, which they were written, as I recall, we talked about in the first chapter. They're written in, like, the second century Bce, I believe.

Wife: You know, I'm shitty with numbers.

Husband: Whatever. They were written later than a lot of the other books we've written that we've read so far. I believe it was, like, around 200 bce.

Husband: So I'm just gonna. Or with something along those lines, but it feels like there was this group of people, and I think we even talked about the group of people, but, like, they're writing these books based on their studies of the Bible to create new stories. They're like, hey, hey, let's just reissue.

Wife: This one with new binding.

Husband: Right? Right. Yeah. That was a great idea for a story. Let's just use that shit.

Wife: You know what people love? People who collect books. What they love is when you get a book and it has multiple different covers, people love that. By which I mean, readers fucking hate that shit. Don't do it.

Husband: Right?

Wife: Don't do it. Or, like, the movie tie in cover. No, they want the original cover. Okay, so that's what they're doing here. They're just putting it in a new cover.

Husband: Well, but there's. In a whole new book, though, they're writing.

Wife: Okay, it's a new story, but whatever.

Husband: Right, right.

Wife: You know, new phone, who dis kind of thing, but it's the same person at the other end of the line.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: Okay. Immediately, what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. Oh, we got to listen to it one more time. They're going to tell us what they told us what they said.

Husband: All right.

Wife: He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a birdhouse. And that picture that we saw perfectly encompasses that.

Husband: That all linked to in the show notes. Yes.

Wife: At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: At that time. I don't understand. Didn't you do a seven? You had to do a seven before you looked up.

Husband: We're just gonna assume that that happening seven times, you know?

Wife: So are we assuming this is, a week and not, like, seven years?

Husband: I am assuming that this whole story is bullshit.

Wife: I mean, okay, yes, obviously it's bullshit, but, like, in canon.

Husband: Right.

Wife: I have.

Husband: No. They didn't really make that clear, so I really don't know.

Wife: It had to only be a week. It couldn't be seven years.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: I mean, in canon, I guess the king couldn't have disappeared for seven years.

Husband: Right. Also, this. This book of Daniel so far has been very boisterous with regard to how it is, you know, pushing up God. Yeah, it's very. It's definitely inflating God's ego.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: With all this, It's crazy. This is. This is. This whole. This whole thing is. Is just crazy talk.

Wife: God. God. Goddy. God.

Husband: Right?

Wife: Then I praised the most high. Yeah, I did.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: I honored and glorified him, who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion. His kingdom endures from generation to generation. Although he does ignore his people a lot. He does.

Husband: He does.

Wife: All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. They're not even worms now. Damn. They're not even worms. He does as he pleases with the power of heaven and the peoples of the earth. You know, because he's a dick, right? I recognize that. Your God is a dick.

Husband: Yes. I do recognize that as well.

Wife: No one can hold back his hand or say to him, what have you done? I can. Yeah.

Husband: and then we're doing that.

Wife: Yeah. What have you done? My goodness, you suck.

Husband: Right?

Wife: At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom.

Husband: Okay.

Wife: My advisors and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. Do you think he brushed his teeth first?

Husband: I don't know.

Wife: Combed his hair?

Husband: I don't know.

Wife: I think this whole changed his undies. I mean, he was just like crawling around in the grass, right? Like a madman.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: Like, do you think he cleaned up?

Husband: I have no idea.

Wife: Now, I, nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify. I got out my thesaurus and did a bunch of good, positive things. the king of heaven. Because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride, he is able to humble. The end.

Husband: I want to know where they got their source material from. because this was written 400 years after the babylonian exile. Right. So Nebuchadnezzar has been dead for 400 years when they wrote this.

Wife: Probably something like that.

Husband: Yeah, I'm almost certain that that's correct.

Wife: Okay.

Husband: So anyway, they wrote this. Let's just say three to 400 years after Nebuchadnezzar is dead. Right.

Wife: Okay.

Husband: And what the fuck do we know about people? 304 hundred years. What do we know about people? Ah. Like our founding fathers, we don't even.

Wife: Know our great grandparents.

Husband: Usually we know enough to tell some fun stories about them. Right. But that's because we have a lot of written history on them.

Husband: And they're still vague characters to us that we don't really know that well. And here we are in ancient times reading about Nebuchadnezzar and what he felt like with regard to this. God.

Wife: Yeah. How some three or 400 years ago.

Husband: Yeah. Where did you get your information? I want to know where you got this from.

Wife: Right.

Husband: Because it doesn't make this, this makes.

Wife: No fucking sense unless it was filed in the historical fiction aisle. I mean, I'm just saying historical fiction is a thing. And it's where you take a, person, or event that actually happened from history, which Nebuchadnezzar was a king, and then you write a story around it and you apply, words and thoughts and feelings to him. And then you can't call it historical, obviously, because it's fiction, but it has so much history in it that did happen. So you call it historical fiction. And that is what they did with this.

Husband: I believe this whole story about Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon and God and I, Daniel and all his friends. I feel like this is a three to 400 years later feel good insert into the biblical text so that everybody can feel better about their whole, getting conquered thing. That happened a while back. You know, this feels like propaganda. Like I said earlier, it's not. It's nothing. It doesn't, jive with all, like, none of these books, none of these chapters mesh well with each other.

Wife: Right.

Husband: And it just feels like straight up propaganda. Well, that's how I feel about it.

Wife: They needed to create these stories to, resurrect a national pride.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: And what is more. What is going to be more exciting than, a king who oppressed you? not just like, dying, but like, before he died, he actually turned around and praised our God.

Husband: Right. That exactly is. That's the conversation I'd like to be having about the Bible. Right. What did this actually mean to these people? Why did they do these things in the context of history? What was going on at the time? Why do they write these obviously false stories about this kingdom? And there are reasons, like you just said probably, that are, that revolve around, you know, pride of their people and, you know, trying to bring back their, nationality and getting everybody excited about their God again. Right, right. But we don't talk about it that way. We talk about it as a true word of God type thing that happened.

Wife: Right. You want to be able to have, like, a literary analysis that also takes history and geography into account and the politics at the time and all of that.

Husband: I think that's how we should be talking about any 2000 year old mythological being.

Wife: No, I agree totally.

Husband: That has no proof of existence.

Wife: Well, that's what we're trying to do here, but we have to read it in order to be able to have that conversation.

Husband: And I'm like, I'm further away. I was already really far away from believing in God before we ever started this Bible.

Wife: Right, yeah, but you were more just like, meh, whatever.

Husband: I was angry at what people did with the Bible and the words in the Bible and because it was very. It was affecting our culture a lot and now even more so. Right, right. But I didn't know to what extent. It was just a bunch of crap, you know, like, I didn't understand that. I thought maybe, like, I was ready to see how it, like, came together and made sense. Right. And. And there are arguments to be made that you can take messages throughout the Bible and create this, standard message, especially if you bring the New Testament into the talk and all these different things. But so far, where we are and where we've come from, the messages are just not working for me at all.

Wife: They changed so much from the beginning to now, and so many times over that, I can understand how every single belief system thinks it's the right one. Sure, because there's a place in the Bible that validates that.

Husband: Yeah, yeah. No, and people joke about it all the time, but, you know, the cherry picked Bible or whatever, and it's very true. Like there, there. If I've seen one thing as we've been reading through this whole thing, is that they're the Bible. is that there are. You could. You could take things to mean any number of things. You could take this Bible that we've read and you could turn it into whatever type of idea you wanted to make it into. There is no set interpretation. There are accepted interpretations by certain groups that have become the mainstream interpretations. But you and I have read through this and taken something completely different than somebody who is religious would take from.

Wife: It, obviously, because we don't have the background to give us preconceived notions, but.

Husband: Generally they don't either. Well, I see what you're saying. We're atheists. We haven't grown up in the religion.

Wife: We're not just atheists. We grew up without religion.

Husband: Right, right.

Wife: I have to clarify that because there are people who did grow up with religion and then who became Christ or became atheists.

Husband: Right.

Wife: And I just wanted to clarify that we do not have that background.

Husband: Honestly, with regard to people who care a lot about being atheists, that seems to be the majority of the people out there. The reason we claim the title of atheist is more because of the political bullshit surrounding Christianity and the United States than it is about our anger or. I don't want to say it's just anger with regard to the atheists that are out there, because it's nothing. But there is definitely, some aspect of wanting to disassociate themselves from the God of the Bible specifically because it was such a traumatic event. That whole portion of their life was so traumatic with regard to how they were brought up, how they felt about this imaginary goddess and what happened to them when they decided to not believe in it anymore. Right. There's a lot of. We've heard a lot of really horrible stories from people, and generally, I think most people are happy to have figured this out, but it still leaves chunks of hurt and pain. Right. So it's just. It's different ways of approaching the same thing. And I just never expected to see this much difference in what we're reading versus what the idea of the message is that's out in the world.

Wife: Yeah, that's been an interesting thing, too, I think. I totally agree with you. We know basic stories, the Noah's ark and that kind of thing, and Adam and eve, but we did not know all the other, ins and outs of various stories, and that's been interesting.

Husband: Well, Christians give you the elevator pitch, right? You get the quick, quick version of what they believe Christianity is, and it's always something beautiful and wonderful and you just need to believe and you got to have faith, right? That's the general message that you get. And most of those people probably know way less about the Bible than we do.

Wife: I actually want to say something about that because we were talking to somebody who had deconverted from Christianity and they said something that I meant to comment on at the time because it was so profound, but it did stick in the back of my mind. with regard to christians always claiming that they've read the Bible like you and I always say that what they have read has been pieces from various pages and various books and various chapters that are daily devotionals, that kind of thing, or whatever their pastor tells them to read. They're not a cohesive reading it all in order. And then I have said, you know, I completely believe that they may have read the entire Bible, but not straight through, and that makes all the fucking difference.

Husband: Yeah.

Wife: Like, they may have touched every word at one time.

Husband: Right.

Wife: You know, throughout their life. Yeah, but it doesn't matter because they're not reading the whole thing, so they don't know what the fuck they've read.

Husband: Sure.

Wife: But, the conversation when we were having this with, some of our friends in the discord group that meets Tuesday nights at ten Eastern, probably Wednesdays this month. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, your workshop schedule changed. Yeah. Keep following us for updates on that. But at any rate, we were having a discussion about this, in our discord group. Ah. And, one of the people that had deconverted from Christianity said we were brainwashed into believing that we had read the entire Bible, so.

Husband: Yeah, I remember that comment.

Wife: Yeah, yeah. And, she said, when she left the church and started, you know, actually trying to read the Bible for herself and then listening to our podcast and listening to us talk about it was, when she realized that she hadn't read nearly as much as she thought she had.

Husband: Right.

Wife: And I found that fascinating. I didn't know that that was, a facet of the church that they do let people believe that they've read the whole bible.

Husband: Yeah, well, I think it's a lot like how, you know, when you're in elementary school, through high school, if you never go past that point with your education or choose to learn more on your own, your idea of what, history is, is very, generic and filled with holes. M right. And it's only when you decide to learn more that it fills in some of those gaps and you start getting a little appalled about what, you know, humanity's history is. And, you know, but you. It takes getting beyond that surface level understanding of what it is.

Wife: Right.

Husband: And generally, unless you are scholarly about any thing that you. You want to be and that you're interested in, you're never gonna get past that generic state of that text.

Wife: Right.

Husband: Right. You're always gonna get that fluffy, wonderful version of it.

Wife: Right.

Husband: And,

Wife: You have to want to know more.

Husband: You have to want to know more.

Wife: And a lot of times, people are just content to just lie with what they've gotten and. And they're done. They don't need more.

Husband: I think that's. I think that's a great response to any Christian that you're fighting with. I'm sad that you don't want to know more.

Wife: Yeah.

Husband: You know, I mean, that's the absolute truth.

Wife: And that can be true of, not just the Bible, but people that are like, I can't be expected to, you know, remember people's pronouns and blah, blah, blah. Really? Because you could memorize all the pieces of a, recipe and, you know, learn new vegetables that you never heard of before.

Husband: Right.

Wife: And that's not a problem for you, but respecting people, like, I'm really sad that you're done taking in new information.

Husband: Yeah. Well, they'll respect them as long as it's something that they deem is correct and. Right. Because they have no problem with names, which is still an identifying character of a human being and how they want to be identified.

Wife: Unless those names are, not your Jennifer, Stacey, David, Chris.

Husband: Right. Yeah. No, they would not accept a name that is. That somebody tells them is their name. If they deem that that person is.

Wife: Not of that gender, that's not white. That's how they.

Husband: Right.

Wife: Like, if it's something that is, like, not considered, like, white american, then they're like, oh, I can't possibly have to figure out these letters. What is this Alphabet soup? Or. You're right. a name that is specifically gendered one way or the other, if the person is identifying as a gender other than what their name would indicate. Yeah. They're not going to respect that.

Husband: Right.

Wife: So, yeah, I. They're just done. And hypocrites.

Husband: There's lots of hypocrisy.

Wife: There is hypocrisy, but it's also just they feel like they know everything there is to know. And their church has told them that, and so they have allowed that to. It's almost like they can sit back in their la z boys and sigh and go, ah. thank goodness I don't have to try anymore with life or learn new stuff.

Husband: That's about right.

Wife: Not only do I get to, like, enjoy, you know, just sit back and not try anymore. Like, I get to be lazy, but I also get to be prideful and boastful about it.

Husband: I think, judgmental is something that people really enjoy doing too. Being judgmental. Like, if you see yourself as higher or better than another human being, that makes you feel good about yourself, right?

Wife: Somehow. Yeah.

Husband: So the more you can be judgmental and degrade other people some. To some people, that makes them lift themselves like that. That replaces, their, self worth while their mental health. It helps them. It helps them feel more powerful, more, in control. There's a lot of things.

Wife: There's a lot of psychology.

Husband: There's a lot of psychology behind it. Yeah. That's what I mean. I don't want to go. I don't know, all the ins and outs. And I'm kind of talking out of my ass here as we do. I know that that is part of it. Yeah. I think we've talked this to death.

Wife: We have gone far afield, my friend.

Husband: So that was Daniel, chapter four.

Wife: Sure as fuck was.

Husband: Which means that finally tomorrow will be back.

Wife: Friday we'll be reading Daniel, chapter five.

Husband: That's right. All right. We will see you guys then. Bye.