Daniel Wrap Up: Bible Study by Atheists

[00:00:00] Welcome to Sacrilegious Discourse.

[00:00:01] For this is what the Sovereign Lord says!

[00:00:03] Why do you need prophets to tell people who you are and what you want?

[00:00:07] If you can justify everything that the God of the Bible has done, then you can justify any of your behavior.

[00:00:14] A lot of this mentality is trickling into what is now mainstream right-wing Christianity.

[00:00:20] I am capable of empathy greater than this God of the Bible.

[00:00:26] This is a Bible that they tell kids. This is the good Lord. This is the good book.

[00:00:32] He is fantasizing about murder, mass murder.

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[00:01:23] Do you know what we're doing today?

[00:01:26] Well, we just got done reading the apocryphal books of Daniel.

[00:01:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:01:30] And that-

[00:01:30] And the apocalyptic ones too.

[00:01:32] Well, yeah, those too.

[00:01:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:01:34] And-

[00:01:34] Prior to that.

[00:01:35] Right.

[00:01:35] And we have finished all of the books of Daniel, which generally means that today we'd be doing-

[00:01:42] A wrap-up.

[00:01:44] What the fuck?

[00:01:45] There's no jingle for wrap-ups!

[00:01:48] Right, but you could have said it with a little bit more energy. You're just like, a wrap-up.

[00:01:55] A wrap-up.

[00:01:56] A wrap-up.

[00:01:56] We're doing the wrap-up for the book of Daniel.

[00:02:00] Dan-IL.

[00:02:01] Right?

[00:02:01] Dan-IL, whatever.

[00:02:02] Yeah.

[00:02:02] And so we're going to go over what we are reading.

[00:02:06] And also-

[00:02:06] And also-

[00:02:07] We're doing this on a Wednesday night.

[00:02:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:09] And we're doing it on our live Discord.

[00:02:12] We are.

[00:02:13] Yeah.

[00:02:13] So if you guys haven't joined us on Discord, now's the time to do it, Eli.

[00:02:19] Oh, dang!

[00:02:20] And you need to get your asses in here and join us on Discord.

[00:02:24] No particular reason that we called out Eli.

[00:02:26] Just, you know, Eli needs to get in here.

[00:02:27] That's all.

[00:02:28] You know who you are?

[00:02:28] Yeah, you know who you are.

[00:02:29] So stop what you're doing and join us on Discord.

[00:02:33] And the rest of you too.

[00:02:34] Yeah.

[00:02:35] Everybody else also.

[00:02:36] Yes.

[00:02:36] But specifically Eli.

[00:02:38] Oh my God.

[00:02:41] All right.

[00:02:42] Do you have anything you wanted to say before we get into this?

[00:02:44] Or are we just hopping in?

[00:02:45] Nah, fuck it.

[00:02:46] Let's go.

[00:02:47] All right.

[00:02:47] Let's do this.

[00:02:48] Okie dokie.

[00:02:50] All right.

[00:02:55] So let's talk about Dan IEL.

[00:02:57] Let's do it.

[00:02:58] Okay.

[00:02:59] Let's talk about the guy, Daniel.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:02] The guy who doesn't exist, who's fictional.

[00:03:04] Yes.

[00:03:04] Who was written 400 years after the fact.

[00:03:06] Yes.

[00:03:06] That guy.

[00:03:07] That's the one.

[00:03:08] Yeah.

[00:03:08] And then let's talk about authorship.

[00:03:11] Not by Daniel.

[00:03:12] Right.

[00:03:12] And then let's talk about the makeup of the book.

[00:03:15] Not by God.

[00:03:16] No.

[00:03:17] And then let's talk about audience theme and purpose of the book.

[00:03:21] None.

[00:03:22] Oh, sorry.

[00:03:23] No, I'm sorry.

[00:03:23] I'm just being dumb.

[00:03:24] And then a little bit of history because I found a little bit more interesting stuff

[00:03:28] that you'll like.

[00:03:29] I was going with the purpose portion of that as to the none.

[00:03:31] Right.

[00:03:32] No, there was a purpose for it.

[00:03:33] No, I'm just being dumb here.

[00:03:35] You're being dumb.

[00:03:36] I'm having fun with it.

[00:03:37] That's all.

[00:03:37] All right.

[00:03:38] So the guy.

[00:03:40] Daniel the guy.

[00:03:40] Yeah.

[00:03:41] Yeah.

[00:03:41] Yeah.

[00:03:42] So the book of Daniel is a second century BCE apocalypse from Judea with a sixth century BCE setting.

[00:03:50] And he spent two separate times in the lion's den.

[00:03:54] Two.

[00:03:54] I mean, who knew one that's in the Bible and one that's extracurricular.

[00:03:59] Well, and the second time certain Bibles, maybe.

[00:04:01] Right.

[00:04:02] Well, the first time was only one night and the second time was for a fucking week.

[00:04:05] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Crazy.

[00:04:07] I don't know if that's a real week or like a Bible every day is a year week or every week

[00:04:13] is a year.

[00:04:14] I don't know.

[00:04:15] So Daniel was an Israelite captive in Babylon during the sixth century BCE.

[00:04:21] According to the stories.

[00:04:23] Yeah.

[00:04:24] Now Judea, the Southern kingdom had fallen to the greatest empire at the time, Babylon.

[00:04:31] Right.

[00:04:31] And was taken into captivity in three waves.

[00:04:35] Right.

[00:04:36] Daniel was in the first group.

[00:04:37] The prophet Daniel was taken captive and was raised up there in Babylon.

[00:04:42] Which I just want to point out was the same wave that Ezekiel was taken in.

[00:04:46] So Ezekiel was hypothetically in the mix there at Babylon at the same time Daniel was, but

[00:04:52] there is no like intermingling.

[00:04:54] There's no.

[00:04:55] They never talked about each other.

[00:04:56] Yeah.

[00:04:56] That never happened.

[00:04:57] So.

[00:04:57] Even though they're both at the same time prophets of God.

[00:05:01] It's a little suspicious in my mind.

[00:05:02] Uh huh.

[00:05:02] Uh huh.

[00:05:03] Daniel, the character.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] Let's not even pretend.

[00:05:07] Right.

[00:05:08] Had lived through the rain and fall of the Babylonian Empire and the start of the Medo-Persian

[00:05:15] Empire when Babylon was invaded.

[00:05:19] Right.

[00:05:19] In chapter five.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:21] Okay.

[00:05:21] So that's all I'm going to say about the dude because there's nothing to say about

[00:05:25] a dude that doesn't exist.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:27] It's hard to give a bio about a fictional character who was only in so many books of a Bible that

[00:05:32] I mean, basically he was in a lot of lion's dens and you know, and his friends were in

[00:05:36] a furnace and he really loved God.

[00:05:38] Like I mean, like fucking so hard that he made Nebuchadnezzar love him sometimes.

[00:05:43] Right.

[00:05:43] Yeah.

[00:05:43] More than once.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:45] And also we've already talked about Daniel in past Q and A's and stuff.

[00:05:51] We have.

[00:05:51] Let's talk about the authorship a little bit.

[00:05:53] Sure.

[00:05:54] Most theologians, so we can also call them Bible apologists.

[00:06:00] Yes.

[00:06:00] Um, they agree that Daniel wrote at least the first six chapters of the book of Daniel.

[00:06:06] Oh shit.

[00:06:06] Right.

[00:06:07] Okay.

[00:06:07] Um, if not the entire book, most Christians believe the entire book was written by this

[00:06:11] person who doesn't even exist.

[00:06:13] Okay.

[00:06:13] Look, I don't know how you could possibly read these books and think that someone named Daniel

[00:06:19] wrote these books.

[00:06:20] Right.

[00:06:21] Okay.

[00:06:22] It just there.

[00:06:23] It's too.

[00:06:24] That's not fair because I'm the one doing the outside research and bringing you information.

[00:06:29] You're right.

[00:06:29] You're right.

[00:06:30] But at the same time, it's not written like it's written by a person in the moment.

[00:06:36] It's written like it's by someone who is trying to make this person the most perfect being

[00:06:43] Yeah.

[00:06:44] for that time in that place.

[00:06:46] Right.

[00:06:46] It's not written like if it was that person writing it for themselves, they would be the

[00:06:51] they would be writing themselves as a hero and who writes themselves as a hero unless

[00:06:56] you're just like the biggest fucking narcissist on the planet that did that wrote himself

[00:07:00] as a hero.

[00:07:01] Did he or was that Nehemiah?

[00:07:02] I get them all confused now.

[00:07:04] I don't remember.

[00:07:04] Um, I thought, well, I mean, Solomon was pretty hero.

[00:07:08] Yeah, he was.

[00:07:09] But his mom or stepmom or something was the editor.

[00:07:13] Yeah.

[00:07:13] No, there was reasons behind that.

[00:07:15] Yeah.

[00:07:16] But he also was very, you know, he thought a lot of himself.

[00:07:19] He did.

[00:07:20] So there's that.

[00:07:21] Yeah.

[00:07:21] But this was different than that.

[00:07:23] This wasn't.

[00:07:23] This was.

[00:07:25] There was so much extolling of God in these episodes.

[00:07:30] Yeah.

[00:07:30] That it was.

[00:07:31] It was absurd.

[00:07:34] Yeah.

[00:07:34] It was definitely like one of those little black and white reels at the beginning of

[00:07:38] movies in theaters from way back in like the what?

[00:07:44] 40s and 50s when they would put those little news reels to try to like get Americans excited

[00:07:49] about going to war.

[00:07:50] Propaganda.

[00:07:51] It was propaganda for Israelites.

[00:07:53] Like whenever I watch the movie.

[00:07:58] Oh, shit.

[00:07:59] Never mind.

[00:08:00] I can't remember what it's called.

[00:08:02] It's the one.

[00:08:03] It's the one that's based on a Heinlein novel.

[00:08:07] And it's the one where they go to war against the bugs.

[00:08:11] War against the.

[00:08:13] Oh, oh, starship troopers.

[00:08:14] Yes.

[00:08:14] Starship troopers.

[00:08:15] Yeah.

[00:08:16] Thank you.

[00:08:17] Holy shit.

[00:08:17] I got a movie and you didn't.

[00:08:19] Well, I could.

[00:08:19] What is happening?

[00:08:20] I wanted to say upside down today.

[00:08:21] I wanted to say Battlestar Galactica and I knew that was absolutely not correct.

[00:08:25] OK, so yes, that movie.

[00:08:27] Yes.

[00:08:28] OK.

[00:08:28] Starship troopers based on a book by Robert A. Heinlein.

[00:08:32] And at the very beginning and at the very end, they show propaganda films.

[00:08:38] Yeah.

[00:08:39] Kids like squishing bugs.

[00:08:40] Everybody do your part.

[00:08:42] Those are fantastic.

[00:08:43] Right.

[00:08:43] Love them.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:44] So that's what it reminds me of.

[00:08:46] Yeah, that's that's totally what the book of Daniel is.

[00:08:48] Sure.

[00:08:49] Is.

[00:08:49] No, it is.

[00:08:50] Absolutely.

[00:08:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:52] So scholars outside the Christian faith, you know, people who go to college and learn about

[00:08:57] this stuff without maybe all the baggage or they have the baggage, but they understand

[00:09:03] that the baggage and the actual history, in fact, are separate and they can somehow separate

[00:09:12] those things, which there are people like that whom I admire and respect.

[00:09:16] Sure.

[00:09:16] So definitely scholars.

[00:09:18] Yeah.

[00:09:19] Regardless of whether they also there are a lot of there are a lot of scholars who started

[00:09:23] out theologians and ended up scholars.

[00:09:26] Yes.

[00:09:26] So, I mean.

[00:09:27] Right.

[00:09:28] There's because there's there's questions.

[00:09:29] I mean, we're reading through the Bible.

[00:09:30] Right.

[00:09:31] Yeah.

[00:09:31] And if you're reading it with a questioning mind and you want to learn as much as you can

[00:09:36] about it, you're going to end up down some paths that are a little bit.

[00:09:39] They're going to make you wonder.

[00:09:41] Yeah.

[00:09:41] They're going to make you wonder.

[00:09:42] Yeah.

[00:09:42] So.

[00:09:44] So scholars.

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:46] Outside the Christian faith.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:47] They believe the final six chapters were written by a Jew during the time when Antiochus the

[00:09:53] fourth Epiphanies descent, desecrated the Jewish temple during his whole abomination of desolation.

[00:10:01] Right.

[00:10:02] And that's like a time period, like capital abomination, capital desolation in quotation

[00:10:08] marks.

[00:10:08] Like it is a thing to which we have referred multiple times as a specific event.

[00:10:13] Right.

[00:10:14] And I think that that is it's important to point out that the detail of the prophecies

[00:10:19] in Daniel are such that they couldn't look.

[00:10:23] You either have to believe fully that this guy wrote it and had the prophecies and detailed

[00:10:28] out prophecies from 400 years later or it was written 400 years fucking later.

[00:10:34] Right.

[00:10:34] Right.

[00:10:35] Well, and then those are those are the two options.

[00:10:36] There's some other things that I'll get into when I touch on the history briefly.

[00:10:40] Yeah.

[00:10:40] That will agree with that.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:44] Right.

[00:10:44] The last chapters, as we pointed out when we were reading them, seven through 12 experience

[00:10:50] a shift in the language used, the tone, the style, all of that, which helps contribute

[00:10:56] to this debate of who wrote it and when and were there redactors?

[00:11:02] Did he start it and then other people came along later or did this whole group sit down

[00:11:07] and write it or did some people write part of it and other people came along later?

[00:11:11] And I'm like.

[00:11:12] Well, there is a difference.

[00:11:12] The first six were written in Aramaic, right?

[00:11:15] And then the last ones were written in Greek or something?

[00:11:18] Hebrew.

[00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:19] I didn't think that's correct.

[00:11:21] Hold on.

[00:11:21] I've got it right here.

[00:11:23] Actually.

[00:11:23] The first chapters one through six were written in Aramaic and chapter seven through 12 were

[00:11:30] written in Hebrew.

[00:11:31] Oh, OK.

[00:11:32] Well, I apologize.

[00:11:33] I thought it was Greek for some reason.

[00:11:34] Well, you should.

[00:11:35] Yeah, I did.

[00:11:36] I'm sorry.

[00:11:37] You should.

[00:11:38] Yeah.

[00:11:40] So that gets into the next part of what we were going to talk about here.

[00:11:44] OK.

[00:11:44] Yeah.

[00:11:45] There was a shift which was obvious in the language.

[00:11:49] And the language used, not just the word choice.

[00:11:53] Sure.

[00:11:53] So the book of Daniel falls in the third and final section of the Hebrew Bible.

[00:12:00] So like the first section would be the Torah.

[00:12:02] That's the instruction or the law.

[00:12:04] Yeah.

[00:12:04] The second part would be the Nevi'im, which is the prophets.

[00:12:08] OK.

[00:12:08] And then the third part is the Ketuvim and that's the writings.

[00:12:12] Got it.

[00:12:12] And things like Job and Psalms and all that stuff would fall under that section along with

[00:12:18] the book of Daniel because it's writings, not a prophet.

[00:12:22] Right.

[00:12:23] Christian biblical canons group the work with the major prophets, which we know because

[00:12:28] that's how we're reading.

[00:12:29] Yeah.

[00:12:30] The book of Daniel is divided into two parts, which we just talked about.

[00:12:34] The first six chapters are court tales.

[00:12:38] Right.

[00:12:38] And those just talk about how he was brought in and how prisoners were treated if they were

[00:12:46] children during that first wave, especially they were brought in and raised to try to be

[00:12:56] part of the Babylonian.

[00:12:57] Yeah.

[00:12:58] Yeah.

[00:12:59] Kind of not brainwashed necessarily, but not not brainwashed either.

[00:13:03] Yeah.

[00:13:04] Just kind of coerced into.

[00:13:07] Well, I think it depends on your standing in the society and everything like that.

[00:13:11] Sure.

[00:13:11] So and then the last seven or the last six chapters, seven through 12, those were four

[00:13:17] apocalyptic visions.

[00:13:19] And the it's entirely different.

[00:13:21] It's not stories anymore.

[00:13:23] I mean, it is and it isn't.

[00:13:26] But yeah, I mean, they're they're visions of his future.

[00:13:31] Right.

[00:13:31] Supposedly.

[00:13:32] Yeah.

[00:13:32] Or the future for the Israelites, supposedly.

[00:13:35] Right.

[00:13:35] So the Greek text of Daniel is considerably longer than the Hebrew text.

[00:13:41] Okay.

[00:13:42] Due to the three additional stories that we talked about, which remain in Catholic and

[00:13:48] Orthodox Christian Bibles, but were rejected by the Christian Protestant movement in the

[00:13:54] 16th century on the basis that they were absent from the Hebrew Bible.

[00:13:58] Right.

[00:13:58] And these are the tales that we read after we finished the official quote unquote book

[00:14:06] of Daniel.

[00:14:08] We went ahead and read these prayer of Azariah and the song of the three holy children.

[00:14:13] And that one falls during the time when Daniel's three friends go into the furnace.

[00:14:20] Right.

[00:14:20] And then Susanna and the elders.

[00:14:23] And that one is more of a preface to the entire book of Daniel, where this girl is basically

[00:14:30] either let us rape you or we're going to accuse you of fucking somebody because you're such

[00:14:36] a beautiful bitch that we're mad at you for not letting us rape you.

[00:14:40] And she decides to like not be raped and to, you know, stand up for what she for what's

[00:14:47] right.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:48] Yeah.

[00:14:48] She makes the quote unquote right choice, which in that case there is no right choice because

[00:14:52] right.

[00:14:53] You're either going to be raped or killed.

[00:14:55] And let's be honest, that scenario would not have played out like it did in Daniel.

[00:14:58] There's no fucking way.

[00:15:00] No, she would have been killed.

[00:15:02] Mm hmm.

[00:15:03] That's all there is to it.

[00:15:04] Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:05] And then the last one was Belle and the dragon.

[00:15:08] And that was a locked room mystery kind of thing where.

[00:15:13] Yeah.

[00:15:14] First there was the statue is a God and is eating all the stuff.

[00:15:20] And Daniel's like, yeah, no, that's not true.

[00:15:22] Silly.

[00:15:23] And he proves it by putting ashes down and catching their footprints.

[00:15:26] I thought that was very interesting because it kind of speaks to the same thing that happens

[00:15:33] with the Israelites.

[00:15:34] Right.

[00:15:34] Like we talked about it all through the early books of the Bible when they were doing their

[00:15:39] sacrifices and everything and how the priests were the ones that handled all this stuff.

[00:15:43] Mm hmm.

[00:15:43] And we're like, this is just getting eaten by the fucking priests.

[00:15:46] It doesn't go to.

[00:15:47] These aren't offerings to God.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] These aren't getting eaten by God.

[00:15:51] Yeah.

[00:15:51] And then.

[00:15:51] This is not how this works.

[00:15:52] You pointed that out when we were reading that you were like, that's ironic that Daniel's

[00:15:57] like saying this shit, but it's about a statue instead of like our quote unquote living

[00:16:03] God.

[00:16:04] Right.

[00:16:04] And I don't understand how like I would.

[00:16:07] I would have to assume I know more than have to assume.

[00:16:10] I know that a fucking king of Babylon would know that this is how it's going down.

[00:16:17] Right.

[00:16:17] Like there's no, there's no fucking way.

[00:16:19] Right.

[00:16:19] You definitely know this.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] Right.

[00:16:21] Well, I don't know.

[00:16:22] They hid the door that they snuck in through to eat all this stuff and he never once peaked

[00:16:26] whatever.

[00:16:27] Yeah, I know.

[00:16:28] And so then I call bullshit on that.

[00:16:30] So then when Daniel proved them wrong, you know, and was like, no, it's not a statue

[00:16:35] eating it.

[00:16:36] It's your people, your priests and whatever.

[00:16:38] Then the king was like, all right, fine.

[00:16:41] Here's a living God.

[00:16:42] And it's like a dragon, which we know is probably like a crocodile or an alligator or

[00:16:47] whatever.

[00:16:47] Sure.

[00:16:48] And so Daniel makes him some kind of food that has flour or noodley stuff in it or whatever

[00:16:54] or whatever.

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:55] That makes his stomach split.

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:56] So he kills the living God that we go from looking at like, did it not occur to like,

[00:17:02] are we in the same building?

[00:17:04] Is that kind of how that's described?

[00:17:05] There's there's the feast where the priest ate all the food with the dust on the ground

[00:17:09] and then.

[00:17:10] Oh, but over here, look, there's a dragon, too.

[00:17:12] I don't know, because I think that the quote unquote living God, the monster, the dragon

[00:17:18] was out in the gardens is my understanding.

[00:17:22] Oh, if I remember correctly.

[00:17:24] All right.

[00:17:24] Because I was thinking maybe the dragon could have eaten the food.

[00:17:26] Oh, that would be funny.

[00:17:28] Except for they set the wrong footprint.

[00:17:29] It would have been the wrong footprint.

[00:17:30] Yeah.

[00:17:30] But yeah, I'm like, you know, if you got if you have a living God in your fucking temple

[00:17:34] along with the food that you're sitting there to be eaten, I mean, yeah, maybe he ate it.

[00:17:40] You know, this God ate that God's right.

[00:17:42] Yeah, that's hilarious.

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:45] So we read those three and those are apocryphal because they're not included in standard quote

[00:17:51] unquote Bibles.

[00:17:53] Right.

[00:17:53] And the production of apocalypses in literature.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:00] FYI, occurred commonly from 300 BCE all the way through 100 AD.

[00:18:09] So there's that in the Bible you're saying?

[00:18:11] No, in literature.

[00:18:13] Oh, okay.

[00:18:13] Apocalyptic literature.

[00:18:15] Because I mean, we still have apocalyptic.

[00:18:16] No, I know that.

[00:18:18] But it was extremely common in literature for that 400 period.

[00:18:23] I was just trying to clarify.

[00:18:24] Yeah.

[00:18:24] Yeah.

[00:18:24] Not only among Jews and Christians, but also among Greeks, Romans, Persians and Egyptians.

[00:18:30] So the book of Daniel was like not strange for this.

[00:18:35] It was like just following.

[00:18:37] Was there anything in particular going on?

[00:18:39] It sounds like there might have been, you know, based on what we've been reading and

[00:18:42] what we know at the time, it seemed like there was a lot of war.

[00:18:44] There was a lot of things happening in the world.

[00:18:47] So maybe that's why they felt like that.

[00:18:49] Maybe that's why apocalyptic stories were really popular, maybe.

[00:18:55] Could be.

[00:18:55] I would tend to think too that it probably had something to do with the popularity of priestly

[00:19:04] writings as more and more people were able to write and record things.

[00:19:12] They're recording what they see, which is the world always on fire and falling apart around them.

[00:19:17] Sure.

[00:19:18] You know what I mean?

[00:19:18] Yeah.

[00:19:19] And before that, people might not have been as aware of what was going on in the world around them.

[00:19:28] And that's fair.

[00:19:28] And they, on top of that, might not have known enough to write and record it.

[00:19:34] You could even argue that in today's day and age with the advent of the Internet, that people

[00:19:40] are more, they think more in apocalyptic viewpoints because we are exposed to much more than we

[00:19:46] ever were before.

[00:19:46] Yes.

[00:19:47] Right?

[00:19:47] So it's kind of the same mentality, same idea.

[00:19:51] These people were trading more and more and traveling further and further.

[00:19:54] And so they were exposed to more and more ideas.

[00:19:56] And at the same time, cities were growing.

[00:19:59] So humanity was becoming a more and more, quote unquote, stable, civilized, settled down.

[00:20:04] Right.

[00:20:05] So they were able to be exposed to more even as they were sitting still.

[00:20:11] Sure.

[00:20:11] To take that in.

[00:20:12] That makes sense to me.

[00:20:14] And you mentioned, you know.

[00:20:16] Yeah.

[00:20:16] No, you mentioned compared to today.

[00:20:19] And there is a lot of research out there that shows that Gen Z in particular is prone to

[00:20:29] depression and fears about the end of the world because they are online.

[00:20:35] They grew up online.

[00:20:37] They've never known not being online.

[00:20:40] Yeah.

[00:20:40] Unlike, I would say millennials kind of, they grew up very similar, but they may still remember

[00:20:48] as kids not having a phone in their pocket.

[00:20:51] Sure.

[00:20:52] Gen X, we're like the generation that is the both.

[00:20:56] We're the both sides generation because we did literally see a time when nobody had cell phones

[00:21:02] all the way through to now boomers have them and use them and shouldn't.

[00:21:06] Right.

[00:21:07] Right.

[00:21:07] But Gen Z is the first one, the first generation that they were born with cell phones.

[00:21:14] Yeah.

[00:21:15] And they know everything that's happening in the world right now as it's happening.

[00:21:20] And they are like so struck by fear.

[00:21:26] Like why even bother?

[00:21:27] Like why pursue anything higher degree or hard work wise?

[00:21:35] Because, you know, the world may not be here.

[00:21:40] Like there's a lot of research that shows that Gen Z is very stunted that way.

[00:21:45] Well, I mean, when they're seeing stuff about, you know, the climate, climate change and all

[00:21:49] the people, you know, there's a lot of things that are going on that are.

[00:21:52] That's what I'm saying.

[00:21:53] They see the world on fire because it is.

[00:21:56] Sure.

[00:21:56] And I'm not trying to denigrate Gen Z.

[00:22:00] Gen Z.

[00:22:00] I have a Gen Z child.

[00:22:01] Right.

[00:22:02] And I'm just saying I understand why they why apocalyptic literature can influence a generation.

[00:22:10] Sure.

[00:22:11] No, I get it.

[00:22:11] Not to mention that Gen Z also had to deal with the whole COVID lockdown.

[00:22:16] So there's that.

[00:22:17] Right.

[00:22:17] Right.

[00:22:17] All right.

[00:22:18] All right.

[00:22:18] But moving on, Daniel learned the wisdom of the Babylonian magicians, and then he surpassed

[00:22:26] them because he is God's chosen whatever.

[00:22:31] Right.

[00:22:32] Right.

[00:22:32] Yeah.

[00:22:32] He is one of the wise ones.

[00:22:34] The masculine is what the wise ones are called.

[00:22:38] Okay.

[00:22:38] Who have the task of teaching righteousness and whose number may be considered to include

[00:22:43] the authors of the book itself.

[00:22:45] You know, the, the ones who chose what stays and what goes the masculine.

[00:22:50] Got it.

[00:22:51] Okay.

[00:22:51] The wise, wise, wise, wisdomy, wise guys.

[00:22:54] Okay.

[00:22:54] The, the guys with the beards, you know, I mean, that's how I picture them.

[00:23:00] Sure.

[00:23:01] And they're all, they're all men and they all have beards.

[00:23:04] You think?

[00:23:05] Oh yeah.

[00:23:05] Okay.

[00:23:06] All right.

[00:23:06] If you don't have a beard, you can't sit at this table, you know?

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:10] All right.

[00:23:11] Let's talk about audience theme and purpose.

[00:23:13] Okay.

[00:23:14] Sure.

[00:23:14] Like I lumped that all together in one little section.

[00:23:17] Okay.

[00:23:18] Okay.

[00:23:18] So the first section chapters one through six are known as the Babylonian narratives.

[00:23:24] Those are the, the stories.

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:27] And they show four Jewish men living very holy lives in a very pagan land.

[00:23:33] Yeah.

[00:23:34] I mean, that's how it's portrayed.

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:35] Sure.

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:36] And those dudes work hard and they excel in Babylonian society without compromising

[00:23:42] their integrity or their faith.

[00:23:44] So again, what they said.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:46] That's, that's a really big deal.

[00:23:48] And so that was geared toward an audience to show that you can still prevail.

[00:23:55] You can still stick to your, your virtues.

[00:23:59] They kind of skipped the character development though.

[00:24:01] Yeah.

[00:24:01] They didn't, they just said, Hey, these people have positions of power.

[00:24:04] They didn't really explain how they got there.

[00:24:06] Like, well, they were specifically kidnapped because they were beautiful and smart and nepo

[00:24:11] babies.

[00:24:12] Right.

[00:24:13] That's why.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] So we're not all beautiful.

[00:24:16] We're not all smart and we're not all nepo babies.

[00:24:19] So fuck the rest of us, I guess.

[00:24:21] Right.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:22] Yeah.

[00:24:22] So the second section, Daniel chapters seven through 12 shows the abomination of desolation,

[00:24:29] which again is a specific event under Antiochus the fourth epiphanies.

[00:24:34] While according to some theologians simultaneously hinting at the Antichrist to come at the end

[00:24:42] of time.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:43] We talked about that when we read it and I see.

[00:24:47] Well, we talked about it in the vision wrap up too.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:53] I can't remember exactly what we talked about, but I do remember I don't really see it the

[00:24:59] same way.

[00:24:59] Like it didn't really, I don't see how people get that from that.

[00:25:03] Exactly.

[00:25:04] I mean, I see, I see both sides, I guess.

[00:25:06] Like if you're looking at it specifically from the point of view, like if you are a person

[00:25:10] who wholeheartedly believes that this represents the, the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the

[00:25:18] New Testament.

[00:25:18] Right.

[00:25:19] Yeah.

[00:25:19] Okay.

[00:25:20] I see how you can make it fit, but the problem is that you kind of have to make it fit.

[00:25:25] Right.

[00:25:25] There is no just natural slide in there with regard to how that fits.

[00:25:29] Well, the problem is that it's describing events that happen under Antiochus, but it's

[00:25:36] also, there are people saying, um, there are two different groups of people.

[00:25:41] One group of Christians is saying that Antiochus period, that abomination, desolation thingy

[00:25:49] my bobber.

[00:25:50] Um, that was just a trailer for the movie to come.

[00:25:54] Right.

[00:25:55] And then the other Christian group is saying, no, that didn't describe Antiochus.

[00:26:00] That's just the coincidence.

[00:26:01] It's specifically describing the antichrist to come.

[00:26:04] And so you've got two groups that are talking about the same thing and even they don't agree

[00:26:11] on what it is.

[00:26:12] Yeah.

[00:26:13] So the rest of us came across some, some things that said that people can't agree.

[00:26:17] Right.

[00:26:18] Right.

[00:26:18] Like there were, as we were going through Daniel, specifically in the, um, the, uh,

[00:26:23] apocalyptic chapters, there was a couple of places where you were looking at the apologists

[00:26:30] and the, like they, the apologists can't even agree on what this means.

[00:26:33] That's what I just said.

[00:26:34] Yeah.

[00:26:34] Right.

[00:26:35] No, I was just, sorry.

[00:26:36] Um, but yeah, it, it, it's so muddled that you have to, if you want to make this work for

[00:26:43] you with regard to your faith in the whole resurrection and Jesus Christ and all that,

[00:26:50] you probably can make it work, but you do have to make it work.

[00:26:54] And you have to pick like, it's like when somebody says I am Christian and then I'm over

[00:26:58] here on the outside, having read a lot of this going, okay, but which kind are you the

[00:27:03] kind that believes this or this?

[00:27:04] Are you the kind that believes that or that?

[00:27:06] Okay.

[00:27:07] Let's talk about Daniel.

[00:27:08] Are you the Christian that is, this was Antiochus epiphanies?

[00:27:12] Or are you, this was Antichrist or are you part of the both camp?

[00:27:17] It was and will be like, which Christian are you?

[00:27:20] Like saying I'm Christian kind of fucking tells me nothing.

[00:27:24] Honestly.

[00:27:25] Oh, the part I love is when you're talking to someone like that and they, they refuse to

[00:27:29] nail it down to what type of Christian they are.

[00:27:32] I generally think it's because they don't actually know what they are.

[00:27:36] Right.

[00:27:36] But they then are like, well, I don't, I don't have a specific denomination.

[00:27:40] I'm just a Christian.

[00:27:42] Oh, you're a social Christian.

[00:27:44] Okay.

[00:27:45] You kind of believe in God.

[00:27:47] Maybe can't describe it, but it's probably your daddy in the sky.

[00:27:53] You kind of believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, but you're iffy on the details.

[00:27:58] Right.

[00:27:59] You know that Jesus is the son of God, depending on what part of the country you live in.

[00:28:04] You may even understand that he's not a white American.

[00:28:07] Right.

[00:28:08] You may understand that Jesus is a Jew.

[00:28:10] But sometimes these are the most angry people that I run into.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] Right.

[00:28:13] They are so adamant that you are wrong about there not being a God.

[00:28:17] But it's because I think it's, it's the insecurity of them not actually knowing the answer.

[00:28:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:22] And they get very bent out of shape when you say there's not a God.

[00:28:26] Yeah.

[00:28:26] And then when you ask them to defend their point of view, they just throw out like generalizations.

[00:28:31] Heaven.

[00:28:31] I'm going to heaven.

[00:28:32] I'm going to see my dead parents in heaven.

[00:28:33] I'm so excited.

[00:28:34] Yeah.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:36] And we've talked about that.

[00:28:37] Like, wow, that's like the fucking arrogance.

[00:28:39] I feel bad for them a little bit because I feel like there's guilt wrapped into that.

[00:28:43] Not knowing.

[00:28:44] That not knowing thing.

[00:28:45] Right.

[00:28:46] Yeah.

[00:28:46] And where they're, they're defending it with the, the zeal that they do because they don't

[00:28:51] know and they feel guilty for not knowing.

[00:28:53] And like if they were just a real decent, normal human, they could be like, oh my gosh, that's

[00:28:58] a really interesting question.

[00:29:00] I've never really thought about it.

[00:29:01] You know what?

[00:29:01] I think I'll just go read the Bible now and try to figure shit out.

[00:29:04] Wouldn't it just be a better world if people could admit when they don't know?

[00:29:08] Yeah.

[00:29:08] I think that would make the whole world better.

[00:29:10] This is so off topic, but it's why we love our family doctor because he does not try to

[00:29:17] bullshit us with nonsensical answers.

[00:29:19] If he doesn't know the fucking answer, he says, huh, I'm not sure.

[00:29:24] Let's get a specialist to find out.

[00:29:27] Or, hey, since I last saw you, I've done research and got in touch with specialists.

[00:29:31] And here's what I have found out.

[00:29:33] I love a person who is humble enough to know what they don't know and comfortable enough

[00:29:40] with that humbleness to be able to admit it and have no problem because they're more

[00:29:46] interested in getting the right information and sharing it.

[00:29:50] And that's where I am.

[00:29:52] I just want the right information.

[00:29:54] And then that excites me.

[00:29:56] And I want to share that.

[00:29:57] Right.

[00:29:58] Like, I don't need to be right for the sake of right.

[00:30:01] I need to be right because I want the correct information.

[00:30:05] Yeah.

[00:30:05] Like, it's not a pride thing.

[00:30:07] Yeah.

[00:30:07] And I feel like Christians kind of get lost in their pride.

[00:30:11] No, I definitely.

[00:30:13] And I'm like, you need to calm your tits.

[00:30:16] Honestly.

[00:30:17] All right.

[00:30:18] Let's move on.

[00:30:20] So the audience for the visions that Daniel saw are those who were living at the time

[00:30:25] of the restructuring, as well as those who will be living at the end of time.

[00:30:30] So, you know, depending on which side of the fence you're on or the middle of the fence.

[00:30:36] Considering that basically Christians at any given generation think it's the end of time,

[00:30:41] I guess that that audience is always the audience.

[00:30:43] Yes.

[00:30:44] Right.

[00:30:44] Daniel is always going to be the favorite.

[00:30:46] It's great.

[00:30:46] It works out well.

[00:30:47] Yeah.

[00:30:48] The audience for the entire book would have likely been Jews who were under an oppressive

[00:30:52] ruler, which that makes sense.

[00:30:54] We've talked about that.

[00:30:55] Like, it was supposed to be kind of giving them a sense of country pride and culture pride

[00:31:00] and getting them back together and excited to become one people again.

[00:31:05] Got it.

[00:31:06] Got it.

[00:31:06] After having lived under oppression and had been scattered, smothered, covered to the winds.

[00:31:12] The audience for the book also would have likely, oh, I just said that, Jews who were

[00:31:16] under an oppressive ruler.

[00:31:18] Yeah.

[00:31:18] So, however, even the Jews later living under strict Hellenistic or Roman rule would have

[00:31:25] found inspiration and comfort from the examples of Daniel and his three friends, which that's

[00:31:32] because that falls in the same period when they would have wanted that pride in country that

[00:31:38] they were not able to live.

[00:31:41] Right.

[00:31:41] At that moment.

[00:31:42] Right.

[00:31:42] Okay.

[00:31:43] So, the main theme of both sections of the book as a whole is perseverance during a time

[00:31:48] of mass persecution and cultural genocide.

[00:31:52] Right.

[00:31:52] And when we say cultural genocide, what we mean is that these people were forced to give up their cultural identity

[00:31:59] and how they eat, how they learn, how they worship, and how they pray.

[00:32:03] That's different, obviously, from a out-and-out, straight-up genocide.

[00:32:08] Right.

[00:32:08] Um, it's kind of what Americans did to the Native American.

[00:32:14] On top of the attempted out-and-out genocide, they did a very strong cultural genocide.

[00:32:22] Yeah.

[00:32:22] And trying to adopt them into a very white nation.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:28] And we're still trying to recover from that grotesque history.

[00:32:33] Right.

[00:32:33] Um, those who, um, resisted these, uh, problems of, you know, having all of their culture stripped

[00:32:45] away, those who resisted that, they would face pain or even execution.

[00:32:49] So...

[00:32:49] Sure.

[00:32:49] ...they didn't have a lot of choice, and anybody who was reading these stories and found that

[00:32:55] cultural pride would have benefited from it spiritually just on that level alone.

[00:33:01] Right.

[00:33:02] You know, um, kind of like when you're feeling sad about the state of America, but then you

[00:33:09] read a poem by Amanda Gorman.

[00:33:12] Yeah.

[00:33:13] Um, and she fills your heart with pride, and you're like, there's my America.

[00:33:17] No, I, yeah.

[00:33:18] There it is.

[00:33:19] Yeah.

[00:33:20] That kind of thing.

[00:33:21] I love having things...

[00:33:22] Oh, not...

[00:33:23] That sounded like I'm comparing our...

[00:33:26] how we are today with the plight of the Israelites or the Jewish people.

[00:33:31] And I do not mean to indicate that at all, like, at all, just to be clear.

[00:33:36] Like, I'm not trying to downplay the suffering of other cultures in the past.

[00:33:40] Sorry.

[00:33:41] Right, right.

[00:33:42] No, I didn't think you were, but, you know...

[00:33:44] No, I panicked for a minute thinking like, my God, I probably just sounded like, what

[00:33:48] was me, white person?

[00:33:49] And I did not mean to indicate that at all.

[00:33:52] No, but I, you mentioned Amanda Gorman and I always appreciate, I love her work.

[00:33:57] And more than that, though, not just her, I appreciate someone reframing an idea to rekindle

[00:34:04] an idea that I once held or...

[00:34:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:07] Or at least to make me reexamine it.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:10] Right?

[00:34:11] Yeah.

[00:34:11] And I love it when someone makes you think through their words or through their art...

[00:34:15] Yes.

[00:34:16] ...in a way that makes you examine how you've changed and what you are now versus what you

[00:34:22] thought before.

[00:34:23] And those are...

[00:34:25] That's, to me, what art is, is it makes you examine those ideas in yourself, right?

[00:34:30] Yeah.

[00:34:30] So I really appreciate people like that that are able to draw that out of us.

[00:34:35] Yeah.

[00:34:35] And I think that's...

[00:34:36] She's amazing.

[00:34:37] Yeah.

[00:34:37] And that's what I meant.

[00:34:39] Not that we as Americans today can relate to that, what the Israelites or later the Jews

[00:34:47] and the Holocaust went through.

[00:34:48] Obviously, no comparison.

[00:34:50] I meant the cultural rekindling of pride in a nation where that pride has been stripped

[00:34:58] or removed somehow.

[00:35:01] Yeah.

[00:35:02] So that feeling could be similar.

[00:35:04] Sure.

[00:35:05] Not as detrimental, but similar feelings.

[00:35:09] Yeah.

[00:35:09] Right.

[00:35:09] So sorry for the backpedaling.

[00:35:11] I just...

[00:35:12] I want it very clear that I am not trying to step on anybody's toes or erase the pain

[00:35:18] of history.

[00:35:19] Yeah.

[00:35:20] That is not mine.

[00:35:21] You and I get off on tangents sometimes and it's easy to get lost in what we're just

[00:35:26] talking about.

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:27] And kind of...

[00:35:29] We sometimes misstep.

[00:35:30] So it's better to clarify than to not.

[00:35:32] Sure.

[00:35:33] And that's why I interrupted you.

[00:35:34] So apologies for cutting you off.

[00:35:36] It's just like I panicked for a minute.

[00:35:37] You're fine.

[00:35:56] You're fine.

[00:35:57] No.

[00:35:57] All right.

[00:35:58] Great.

[00:35:58] This is just a little bit more interesting stuff that I found that I was like, I'll add

[00:36:01] that in.

[00:36:02] Sure.

[00:36:02] Okay.

[00:36:02] So the visions of chapter 7 through 12 reflect the crisis which took place in Judea in 167

[00:36:09] to 164 BCE when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Greek king of the Seleucid Empire, threatened

[00:36:19] to destroy traditional Jewish worship in Jerusalem.

[00:36:22] Right.

[00:36:22] Okay.

[00:36:23] And when...

[00:36:24] Not just threatened but actively was doing that.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:27] Exactly.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] He didn't just threaten it.

[00:36:29] He did do that.

[00:36:31] Yeah.

[00:36:31] When Antiochus came to the throne in 175 BCE, the Jews were largely pro-Seleucid.

[00:36:37] Remember, they chose him at first.

[00:36:40] They were like, let's throw our weight with this guy.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] Because he was bribing people and he was trying to make fun with everybody to get into power.

[00:36:47] Yeah.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:48] Because he was the vile guy.

[00:36:51] Yeah.

[00:36:52] But nobody could stand later once they knew him for what he was.

[00:36:55] Right.

[00:36:57] The Seleucid Empire was founded in 312 BCE by the Macedonian general Seleicus I.

[00:37:05] Okay.

[00:37:06] Do you remember how we did that whole history and how it mattered because there were several

[00:37:10] Seleicus's all the way down to the fourth?

[00:37:12] I mean, I do vaguely...

[00:37:13] If you're asking me to recount...

[00:37:15] Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:37:16] ...the actual history that we went over, then...

[00:37:18] No, that was too much.

[00:37:19] We're going to be here for a while.

[00:37:20] No.

[00:37:20] I'll have to go back and, you know, re-listen.

[00:37:22] Yeah, no.

[00:37:23] That was too many names.

[00:37:24] I'm just saying, remember that there was a Seleicus and that's what the Seleicid Empire

[00:37:29] is.

[00:37:30] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Following the division of the Macedonian Empire that was founded by Alexander the Great.

[00:37:36] Right.

[00:37:37] So, remember, there was Alexander the Great and then suddenly he died and then...

[00:37:41] Yes.

[00:37:42] Split into four sections.

[00:37:43] Yada, yada, yada.

[00:37:44] Four horns and then a little horn.

[00:37:45] Back and forth, north and south, whatever.

[00:37:47] Yeah.

[00:37:48] The king of the north, king of the south, Jon Snow.

[00:37:50] Yeah.

[00:37:51] There you go.

[00:37:51] Right?

[00:37:52] Yeah.

[00:37:52] Now we did it.

[00:37:53] So, the high priestly family was split by rivalry and one member, Jason, offered the king

[00:38:00] a large sum of money to be made high priest.

[00:38:04] Now remember, we heard that Antiochus sold the priesthood, but we never heard about the

[00:38:13] other side of it, the person who bought the priesthood.

[00:38:16] Right.

[00:38:16] Remember, we heard Antiochus was like...

[00:38:19] Yeah, he's...

[00:38:20] Right.

[00:38:20] He was like vile and he was like honeying up to people and then like he was weird because

[00:38:26] he would like pop up in bathroom and bathhouses and he was trying to like rent office space

[00:38:32] and just...

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:32] He was just weird.

[00:38:33] Throwing money at people like, surprise, I don't know you, here's a present.

[00:38:36] Yep.

[00:38:36] Yeah.

[00:38:37] So, one of the horrible things he did was sell the priesthood, the high priest office.

[00:38:44] Yeah.

[00:38:44] And so this guy, Jason, was like, yo, I would totally like to buy that.

[00:38:49] Okay?

[00:38:49] Okay.

[00:38:50] So, Jason also asked, or more accurately, he paid to be allowed to make Jerusalem a polis,

[00:38:58] which is a Greek city.

[00:39:00] Oh.

[00:39:00] So, he's like, hey, so I want to be the total head priest.

[00:39:04] Does that sound good?

[00:39:05] Here's like $5 million or whatever the going rate is.

[00:39:08] Okay.

[00:39:08] Okay?

[00:39:08] And then also on top of that, could Jerusalem be like, I don't know, a Greek city that I

[00:39:13] get to be in charge of?

[00:39:14] Wouldn't that be cool?

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:15] So, he's basically paying to be in charge of a city that he wants to make Greek, so he's

[00:39:19] going to convert them all and force them to be Greek.

[00:39:21] Yeah.

[00:39:21] Is that basically the gist of it?

[00:39:23] That is the gist of it.

[00:39:24] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Okay.

[00:39:24] So, this meant, among other things, that city government would be in the hands of the citizens

[00:39:31] because that's what a Greek city was at the time, which actually sounds good.

[00:39:36] That doesn't sound like that would work out very well for him, though, with regard to converting

[00:39:39] them to Greek culture.

[00:39:41] Right.

[00:39:42] So, that could be a problem.

[00:39:43] Yeah.

[00:39:44] This would have also meant, in turn, that citizenship would be a valuable commodity that you would

[00:39:51] have to purchase from Jason.

[00:39:53] Oh, I see.

[00:39:54] I see.

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:54] So, he was combining Greek democracy with Roman capitalism and being like, this is awesome.

[00:40:04] I love this plan.

[00:40:05] Let us do this.

[00:40:07] Well, if you have to buy your citizenship, you can choose who you want to be citizens to.

[00:40:10] It's a club.

[00:40:11] So, yeah.

[00:40:11] This is not a city.

[00:40:12] This is a gated community.

[00:40:14] Right.

[00:40:14] Right.

[00:40:15] To be fair, we kind of do that.

[00:40:16] I mean, you don't automatically get to be a citizen just because you're in the United

[00:40:19] States.

[00:40:20] No, it's true.

[00:40:20] You have to pay taxes and you have to have at least a birthright and, you know, things

[00:40:26] like that.

[00:40:26] So, it's not an automatic club just by living here.

[00:40:30] No.

[00:40:30] Have you heard about those poor kids who they were homeschooled?

[00:40:36] They were birthed at home.

[00:40:39] Their birth was never recorded.

[00:40:41] They were homeschooled.

[00:40:43] So, they never had shot records or anything.

[00:40:45] No school records.

[00:40:46] Oh, man.

[00:40:46] They, quote unquote, graduated, but they don't have any records of that.

[00:40:51] Social security numbers.

[00:40:51] Nothing.

[00:40:52] So, they have no social security numbers.

[00:40:53] And now, they are like having to jump through hoops.

[00:40:57] There's like a whole generation of kids now out there.

[00:41:00] Basically, millennials.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:02] The majority of them who are online.

[00:41:05] They're in Reddit asking for help.

[00:41:07] Does anybody know how?

[00:41:09] How to fix this.

[00:41:10] Who do I contact?

[00:41:11] How do I contact?

[00:41:12] Right.

[00:41:13] And, like, I can so relate to that because I wasn't born.

[00:41:19] In the United States?

[00:41:20] Well, yeah.

[00:41:21] I was born on American soil overseas.

[00:41:25] Right.

[00:41:25] Kind of.

[00:41:26] Yeah, yeah.

[00:41:26] A hospital that no longer exists.

[00:41:31] I had a report, a consulate report of birth of an American abroad because my dad was Air

[00:41:40] Force, but my mom had to go to a hospital in Germany to have me, even though my dad was

[00:41:46] stationed in Italy.

[00:41:48] And so, I had a birth certificate that was sent later after the announcement of the birth abroad.

[00:41:55] Right.

[00:41:56] And because I moved so often, I fucking misplaced both of those documents, which I hated myself.

[00:42:05] I have since found them.

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:06] But during this time period, my driver's license had expired and I hadn't driven for like

[00:42:12] three or four.

[00:42:12] Oh, this was a debacle.

[00:42:13] This was a debacle.

[00:42:15] I hadn't driven for three or four months, so I didn't realize, because I had also misplaced

[00:42:21] my driver's license.

[00:42:23] I didn't realize that it expired while it was misplaced.

[00:42:26] So, in order to get my driver's license, I needed my birth certificate.

[00:42:31] But to get my birth certificate, I needed ID, like, for example, a driver's license.

[00:42:37] Yeah.

[00:42:37] Yeah.

[00:42:37] And moreover, I had been married and divorced in Hawaii, where I was stationed in the army.

[00:42:46] And I needed that because it had proof of a last name change.

[00:42:52] And I couldn't get that without either.

[00:42:56] So, I had to have my mom contact the Hawaii consulate to ask for that on my behalf.

[00:43:03] And then I had to contact the American consulate in Washington, D.C.

[00:43:09] Yeah.

[00:43:09] To have them reissue my announcement of birth abroad.

[00:43:15] Yeah.

[00:43:15] We had to get our congressperson involved.

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:17] I contacted my congressperson.

[00:43:19] They're the ones that set me up with the consulate in D.C.

[00:43:22] Like, it was a whole fucking mess.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:24] And that's me with military background through my dad and through myself, fingerprinted because I had a security clearance while I was in the military.

[00:43:38] White American.

[00:43:39] Like, I had every privilege in the world.

[00:43:41] I have family I could ask for help.

[00:43:43] And it was still a goat screw.

[00:43:46] Oh, it was.

[00:43:46] So, I cannot imagine what these poor kids are going through.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:51] So, way off topic.

[00:43:52] Way.

[00:43:53] Just wanted to put that out there.

[00:43:54] Sorry.

[00:43:56] All right.

[00:43:56] So, none of this stuff threatened with Jason asking, hey, can I make my own gated community and be in charge of it?

[00:44:05] None of this threatened the Jewish religion.

[00:44:07] And the reforms were widely welcomed.

[00:44:10] Yeah.

[00:44:10] Because the Jewish people were like, yeah, that's fine with us.

[00:44:13] Hope that works out because we'll pay for membership into this club.

[00:44:17] Sure.

[00:44:18] Especially among the Jerusalem aristocracy and the leading priests.

[00:44:22] Yeah.

[00:44:23] So, they were for it.

[00:44:24] But three years later, Jason was deposed when another priest, Menelaus, offered Antiochus an even larger sum for the post of high priest.

[00:44:33] It's the problem with bought posts.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:35] It's the problem with bought anything.

[00:44:37] You buy anything and somebody can always pay more.

[00:44:40] Right.

[00:44:40] Yep.

[00:44:41] If you're for sale, the question is not what did you buy and how much.

[00:44:47] The question is how much is somebody else willing to pay?

[00:44:50] Right.

[00:44:51] Yeah.

[00:44:51] Antiochus invaded Egypt twice in 169 BCE with success.

[00:44:57] But then on the second incursion in late 168 BCE, he was forced to withdraw by the Romans.

[00:45:04] Got it.

[00:45:04] Okay.

[00:45:04] Okay.

[00:45:05] Now, Jason, remember, he's the one that just had got like outbought.

[00:45:10] Yeah.

[00:45:10] He heard a rumor that Antiochus was dead.

[00:45:13] So, he's like, fuck yeah.

[00:45:15] So, he went over and attacked Menelaus because he's like, I'm going to get my high priesthood back.

[00:45:20] I like that neighborhood.

[00:45:22] Right.

[00:45:22] My gated community.

[00:45:24] Oopsie.

[00:45:25] Guess who wasn't dead?

[00:45:26] Antiochus.

[00:45:27] That's a problem.

[00:45:28] Yeah.

[00:45:28] So, Antiochus drove Jason out of Jerusalem, plundered the temple, and introduced measures to pacify his Egyptian border by imposing complete Hellenization.

[00:45:39] So, he turned it all Greek.

[00:45:41] Got it.

[00:45:41] Okay.

[00:45:41] The Jewish book of the law, meaning the Torah, the instruction, was prohibited.

[00:45:47] And on a very specific date, 15 December 167 BCE, this is historical, not supposition.

[00:45:58] Got it.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:45:59] The abomination of desolation, probably a Greek altar, was introduced into the temple.

[00:46:06] Okay.

[00:46:06] Okay.

[00:46:07] So, this actually happened under Antiochus.

[00:46:10] And this is why it happened.

[00:46:11] This is the story behind that story.

[00:46:14] Got it.

[00:46:14] I thought that was so interesting.

[00:46:16] Yeah.

[00:46:16] So, the Jewish religion is now clearly under threat at this point.

[00:46:20] Sure.

[00:46:20] Right?

[00:46:21] So, a resistance movement spring up led by the Maccabee brothers.

[00:46:25] Right.

[00:46:26] And that's, we want to read Maccabees.

[00:46:28] Those are not in the Bible that we're reading.

[00:46:30] So, we're going to have to, like, get a hold of a different Bible version or something.

[00:46:35] Because I got to read about these Maccabees.

[00:46:37] And it must not have taken very long because you said this was 167 BCE and the Maccabee revolution started in, like, 165 BCE, didn't it?

[00:46:44] I honestly don't know.

[00:46:45] I'm almost certain that's correct.

[00:46:47] I have new idea because I do not do numbers.

[00:46:50] Got it.

[00:46:51] So, over the next three years, the Maccabees and their whole resistance movement won sufficient victories over Antiochus to take back and purify the temple.

[00:47:02] So, they won.

[00:47:03] Yeah.

[00:47:03] So, spoilers.

[00:47:04] Okay?

[00:47:05] Uh-huh.

[00:47:05] Whenever we get to that, now we know how it ends.

[00:47:09] The daily offering, which used to take place twice a day at morning and evening, stopped.

[00:47:15] So, that was one of the things Antiochus did to, like, strip them of their culture.

[00:47:20] Yeah.

[00:47:20] The phrase evenings and mornings recurs throughout the chapters of Daniel as a reminder of the missed sacrifices.

[00:47:30] And I remember we actually got into an argument in one of the episodes about, you know, they were saying the morning and the evening at sacrifices in 2000 or 1000, whatever.

[00:47:38] Yeah.

[00:47:39] So, yeah.

[00:47:40] That was, yeah.

[00:47:41] It was brought up quite a bit.

[00:47:42] Yeah.

[00:47:43] Well, that's why.

[00:47:44] Okay.

[00:47:44] So, that specific event caused the specific word choice in the book of Daniel.

[00:47:52] Yeah.

[00:47:52] Interesting, right?

[00:47:53] Yeah.

[00:47:54] So, whereas the events leading up to the sacking of the temple in 167 BCE and the immediate aftermath are remarkably accurate, the predicted war between the Syrians and the Egyptians, oopsie, never took place.

[00:48:09] That didn't happen.

[00:48:10] Okay.

[00:48:10] So, you know, whatevs.

[00:48:12] You know that prophecy that Antiochus would die in Palestine?

[00:48:16] It didn't happen.

[00:48:17] He died in Persia.

[00:48:18] It's funny.

[00:48:19] So, I think we kind of touched on this when we were going through it, that the prophecies that happened to the things that they wrote before the time period where they wrote it were, like, specifically correct.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:33] But then you could kind of tell when they transitioned into these, like, future prophecies.

[00:48:37] Some came to.

[00:48:37] Something like, this is going to happen over here.

[00:48:39] Yeah.

[00:48:39] And you're like, okay.

[00:48:41] Yeah.

[00:48:41] Well, is it, though?

[00:48:43] Well, the most probable conclusion is that the account must have been completed near, near the end of the reign of Antiochus.

[00:48:53] Sure.

[00:48:53] So, that's why.

[00:48:54] Well, I think we talked about that, too.

[00:48:56] Like, the Maccabee Revolution happened in, like, 165, I think, is what I recall.

[00:49:00] And so, if that's true, it sounds to me like that's probably about the time frame that this was all.

[00:49:05] Cooking.

[00:49:06] Yeah.

[00:49:07] Yeah.

[00:49:07] Sure.

[00:49:07] Yeah.

[00:49:08] So, it would have been completed near the end of his reign, but before Antiochus' death in December 164 BCE.

[00:49:17] Okay.

[00:49:18] Okay?

[00:49:18] Yeah.

[00:49:18] Or at least before the news of it reached Jerusalem.

[00:49:22] Got it.

[00:49:23] Got it.

[00:49:24] Yeah.

[00:49:24] And the consensus of modern scholarship is accordingly that the book dates to the period 167 to 163 BCE.

[00:49:33] There you go.

[00:49:34] Yep.

[00:49:34] Yeah.

[00:49:34] The end of Daniel, except for the you're always wrong.

[00:49:39] Right.

[00:49:39] Yeah.

[00:49:40] We got to have our contradictions episode still.

[00:49:43] Yep.

[00:49:43] Yep.

[00:49:43] And then that will finish us up with the whole book of Daniel.

[00:49:47] Yep.

[00:49:47] Yep.

[00:49:48] And then you said we're getting into Hosea?

[00:49:50] Hosea.

[00:49:51] Hosea.

[00:49:52] Hypothetically, unless we decide whatever.

[00:49:54] Yeah.

[00:49:54] Probably Hosea.

[00:49:55] Yes.

[00:49:55] So.

[00:49:56] Yep.

[00:49:56] All right.

[00:49:57] So, we'll have that out.

[00:49:58] Today's Wednesday.

[00:50:00] Today's Wednesday.

[00:50:00] So, we'll have that out.

[00:50:01] So, this will come out on Thursday.

[00:50:02] Right.

[00:50:03] And then Friday will be our contradictions episode.

[00:50:05] And then.

[00:50:07] So, I think Sunday we will probably do a book club.

[00:50:10] Okay.

[00:50:11] And then on Monday we'll start Hosea.

[00:50:14] Okay.

[00:50:15] That sounds good.

[00:50:15] That sounds good.

[00:50:16] Yeah.

[00:50:16] Okay.

[00:50:16] So, we might take a day off on Saturday.

[00:50:18] Yeah.

[00:50:18] All right.

[00:50:19] That sounds fair.

[00:50:20] I mean, my mouth is still jacked up.

[00:50:22] I think we deserve a day off.

[00:50:23] You know?

[00:50:23] That's good.

[00:50:24] I'm all for it.

[00:50:25] Good.

[00:50:34] I mean, we won't know until next Wednesday.

[00:50:38] I know.

[00:50:38] Right?

[00:50:38] So.

[00:50:39] Why don't we get on Discord in between?

[00:50:40] Well, that's true.

[00:50:41] So, I thought you were talking about the live.

[00:50:42] No.

[00:50:43] Yeah.

[00:50:44] But no.

[00:50:44] Eli gets his ass on Discord.

[00:50:46] Get your ass on Discord.

[00:50:47] And the rest of you too.

[00:50:48] Yes.

[00:50:49] The lives are such fun.

[00:50:50] So, get over here.

[00:50:52] And maybe we'll mention somebody else.

[00:50:54] You know?

[00:50:55] Next time.

[00:50:55] Yeah.

[00:50:55] We'll yell at other people.

[00:50:56] We're just going to call out people individually until everybody's on there.

[00:50:59] And that's how this is going to work.

[00:51:00] Okay?

[00:51:03] If you call out, you should be sad.

[00:51:03] Honestly.

[00:51:04] Right.

[00:51:05] Because we call out people whose name we know.

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:07] We actually, you know, there's two people here tonight that we called out to get them in here.

[00:51:13] Because we are those assholes.

[00:51:16] All right.

[00:51:17] So, that was the wrap up for the Book of Daniel.

[00:51:20] Sure as fuck was.

[00:51:21] And we'll be back tomorrow with our contradictions episode.

[00:51:24] You're always wrong.

[00:51:26] That's the one.

[00:51:27] So, we will see you then.

[00:51:29] Bye.

[00:51:32] I'm Lena, a German AI from 1000.

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