Daniel Chapters 6 - 10 Q&A: Bible Study by Atheists

[00:00:00] Welcome to Sacrilegious Discourse.

[00:00:01] For this is what the Sovereign Lord says!

[00:00:04] Why do you need prophets to tell people who you are and what you want?

[00:00:07] If you can justify everything that the God of the Bible has done, then you can justify any of your behavior.

[00:00:14] A lot of this mentality is trickling into what is now mainstream right-wing Christianity.

[00:00:20] I am capable of empathy greater than this God of the Bible.

[00:00:26] This is a Bible that they tell kids.

[00:00:29] This is the good Lord. This is the good book.

[00:00:32] He is fantasizing about murder. Mass murder.

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[00:00:48] Wife!

[00:00:49] What are we doing today?

[00:00:51] Well, we're a little bit late. It is Sunday, but we are doing our...

[00:00:56] Q&A! Not on Saturday!

[00:00:58] Which, uh, what are we covering today?

[00:01:00] We are covering Dan I.L chapters 6 through 10.

[00:01:04] Okay, alright. Which there was some crazy shit this week, so...

[00:01:08] There was some crazy shit, indeed.

[00:01:11] So, uh, do you want to just hop in or do you have anything to say about the upcoming craziness?

[00:01:16] Mmm, let's just hop in.

[00:01:18] Mmm, just mmm, okay.

[00:01:19] Alright, well, you ready to do this?

[00:01:21] Sure.

[00:01:22] Let's do it.

[00:01:22] Okie dokie.

[00:01:29] Alright, let's hop into this stupid book of Dan I.L.

[00:01:32] Okay.

[00:01:33] Okay.

[00:01:33] Let's do it.

[00:01:34] So, we started with chapter 6 this last week.

[00:01:37] We sure did.

[00:01:38] And that was the last of the stories.

[00:01:42] Right, where we're getting to know Daniel and his buddies.

[00:01:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:01:44] Yeah.

[00:01:45] And, uh, he was thrown into that den of lions.

[00:01:48] He sure was.

[00:01:49] So, I mean, there wasn't, we didn't really have many questions.

[00:01:52] We were like, yep, that happened.

[00:01:53] Right.

[00:01:54] Whatever we have.

[00:01:54] Other than why the fuck did they punish the people that got him thrown in there by killing

[00:01:59] their kids and wives as well.

[00:02:01] But that's a question for God, not the Bible.

[00:02:04] Well, or that king that did it.

[00:02:05] Yeah.

[00:02:06] I'm just saying.

[00:02:07] But, be that as it may, it's not a question that we have that can be answered through research.

[00:02:12] No, I gotcha, I gotcha.

[00:02:13] Right.

[00:02:13] So, chapters 7, 8, and 9 are Daniel's visions.

[00:02:19] 1, 2, and 3.

[00:02:21] Okay.

[00:02:21] Okay.

[00:02:21] And then chapter 10 starts his fourth vision.

[00:02:26] Got it.

[00:02:26] Yeah.

[00:02:27] Because then 10, 11, and 12 cover his fourth vision.

[00:02:31] Sure.

[00:02:32] Okay.

[00:02:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:32] So, let's talk about chapter 7, that first vision.

[00:02:35] Well, before you do that, I do want to say about chapter 6 that I was, just the amount

[00:02:41] of emphasis that is on that chapter with regard to Christianity and how Christians take that

[00:02:47] chapter is immense.

[00:02:50] Based on what I read, it's not really that, like, it didn't mean that much.

[00:02:55] It wasn't.

[00:02:56] I was just blown away by how little.

[00:02:58] It wasn't any different from any of his other 1 through 5 chapters to me.

[00:03:04] Right.

[00:03:04] It's that overblown sense of, this God is so fucking amazing.

[00:03:10] Can you see how fucking unbelievably amazing this God is?

[00:03:14] He's just crazy amazing.

[00:03:16] Yeah.

[00:03:17] And he does all these amazing things to this fictional guy Daniel that we made up 400 years

[00:03:21] later.

[00:03:21] It's amazing.

[00:03:22] Amazing.

[00:03:22] Did you see how fucking amazing it is?

[00:03:24] I was not impressed, so I did not think it was amazing.

[00:03:27] Nor was I.

[00:03:28] But I thought it was worth calling out one last time how not amazing I was, or how not

[00:03:34] amazed I was by the things that happened in specifically that chapter and the rest of the introduction

[00:03:39] of Daniel.

[00:03:40] Yeah.

[00:03:40] I agree.

[00:03:41] I agree.

[00:03:41] Because it was just propaganda.

[00:03:43] It was bullshit.

[00:03:44] It was, holy crap, can you not see through the words that they're saying?

[00:03:48] This is ridiculous.

[00:03:50] Read between the lines, my guys.

[00:03:51] I just had to say something before we jumped ahead to the rest of the Q&A.

[00:03:55] So I'm going to hop into chapter seven now.

[00:03:58] I just wanted to, yeah.

[00:04:00] So chapter seven was his first vision and Daniel dreams of four beasts.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] And we were pretty confused because there were horns and cities and kingdoms and we were

[00:04:12] like, what?

[00:04:13] And a bear.

[00:04:13] And then horns grew out of horns.

[00:04:15] But just a bear.

[00:04:15] A bear had ribs and...

[00:04:17] Why the fuck is there just a bear?

[00:04:18] Like, the rest of them have all these special parts, but then there's just a bear.

[00:04:21] Right.

[00:04:22] That was weird.

[00:04:23] It was weird.

[00:04:23] Yeah.

[00:04:24] So I'm going to read you some of my further notes on chapter seven.

[00:04:29] Okay?

[00:04:29] And not really...

[00:04:32] I didn't really have specific questions and specific answers for these.

[00:04:36] I had some, can you fucking explain this whole thing to me?

[00:04:41] Yeah.

[00:04:41] So...

[00:04:42] I think that's more what we need to cover because it was so confusing all the way through with

[00:04:46] regard to the symbol symbolism that they're using that might have been more prevalent back

[00:04:51] when they wrote it, but now it's hard to distinguish what they're talking about.

[00:04:55] Right.

[00:04:55] Yeah.

[00:04:56] The symbology kind of got lost over the, you know, centuries, millennia.

[00:05:01] Yeah.

[00:05:01] Yeah.

[00:05:02] Okay.

[00:05:02] So in the previous chapters, one through six, Daniel told some stories about himself and

[00:05:07] his fellow captives, you know, Daniel and co.

[00:05:10] Right.

[00:05:10] And he gave examples of him being able to interpret the dreams of others.

[00:05:14] Right.

[00:05:15] Right?

[00:05:15] So that was kind of a setup for where we are now, where Daniel begins to detail his own

[00:05:22] dreams and visions.

[00:05:24] So they're trying to give him some like...

[00:05:26] Credence.

[00:05:26] A resume.

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:27] They're building him a resume.

[00:05:28] Like, hey, this guy can interpret these guys' dreams.

[00:05:30] So obviously when he interprets his own dreams, it's going to be correct as well.

[00:05:34] Right.

[00:05:34] You're supposed to be able to trust and rely on him because he's proven himself.

[00:05:39] Yeah.

[00:05:39] Right?

[00:05:39] Uh-huh.

[00:05:40] So now we're returning to a period prior to chapter six, because remember some of these

[00:05:47] are out of order.

[00:05:47] Yes.

[00:05:48] Right?

[00:05:48] Yeah.

[00:05:48] So the four kingdoms represented in Daniel's vision, and we read some of this before, but

[00:05:55] it does bear repeating.

[00:05:57] Yeah.

[00:05:57] They're the same four kingdoms that were illustrated in chapter two.

[00:06:01] Okay.

[00:06:02] The Chaldean or Babylonian kingdom.

[00:06:04] Okay.

[00:06:04] The Medo-Persian kingdom, the Macedonian or Grecian kingdom, and the Roman kingdom.

[00:06:12] Got it.

[00:06:12] Okay.

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:13] There's a difference in the emphasis though between when we talked about those four kingdoms

[00:06:18] in chapter two versus where we're talking about them now.

[00:06:23] Okay.

[00:06:23] Okay.

[00:06:23] The vision given to King Nebuchadnezzar in chapter two dealt in general with the historical

[00:06:30] significance of the events that were symbolized.

[00:06:34] Got it.

[00:06:34] Okay.

[00:06:34] Just like the people in general.

[00:06:36] Okay.

[00:06:36] The vision given to Daniel in chapter seven deals more with how these events are going

[00:06:42] to affect God's people.

[00:06:44] Okay.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:45] So the king was given a very like cursory overview and Daniel that has a vision.

[00:06:51] He got the details.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] He gets a little bit more.

[00:06:54] Right.

[00:06:54] Okay.

[00:06:54] So let's talk about the four beasts a little bit better.

[00:06:56] Okay.

[00:06:57] So the first beast that was covered in verse four, it says the first was like a lion and

[00:07:04] it had the wings of an eagle.

[00:07:06] I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood

[00:07:11] on two feet like a human being.

[00:07:13] Okay.

[00:07:13] All right.

[00:07:14] Well, lions and eagles both were considered kings of their realms.

[00:07:18] Like, you know, lion is the king of the forest and eagle is king of the sky.

[00:07:22] They thought.

[00:07:23] Okay.

[00:07:23] Sure.

[00:07:24] So that's to show you how powerful these guys were.

[00:07:28] They were strong leaders and recognized as such.

[00:07:31] Right.

[00:07:31] Okay.

[00:07:31] So Babylon, the kingdom symbolized by this first beast was proud, ruthless and unconquerable

[00:07:38] at the beginning.

[00:07:39] Sure.

[00:07:39] The Babylonian empire was the first world power that conquered Judah.

[00:07:44] That's a big deal.

[00:07:45] Yeah.

[00:07:46] And, you know, we didn't really say anything about that at the time, but it is a big deal.

[00:07:49] They were the first one that brought the entire kingdom to its knees.

[00:07:53] It's true.

[00:07:54] That's true.

[00:07:55] Later on, Babylon's cruel power softened and became more humane.

[00:08:00] And that's what we mean when we say its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground

[00:08:04] so that it stood like a human being.

[00:08:06] Got it.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:07] So it became more human and less powerful, but it also became less strong.

[00:08:14] Right.

[00:08:15] And was able as it became, quote unquote, more human, it became weaker and was able to be conquered by other kingdoms.

[00:08:22] Sure.

[00:08:23] Okay.

[00:08:23] But we'll talk about that in a minute.

[00:08:25] I do want to stipulate one thing because there is this whole relationship that Israel has had with Egypt over the time that we've been reading the Bible.

[00:08:34] And so it's not that they weren't like, I feel like they were kind of like a, they were, they were part of Egypt, but not really.

[00:08:42] Right.

[00:08:43] You know what I mean?

[00:08:43] They were frenemies.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:45] And we've discussed that before.

[00:08:46] Well, and they held, Egypt held some political influence in Israel as well.

[00:08:51] So it's not, they were standalone, but they also were influenced heavily by Egyptian power earlier on.

[00:08:58] Sure.

[00:08:59] Yeah.

[00:09:00] I mean, when it was safe to do so, Judah was trying to assert its own independence from Egypt.

[00:09:06] Sure.

[00:09:07] But when other kingdoms such as Babylon came along, then they were like, oh, fuck this.

[00:09:14] And sometimes they would turn to Egypt for help.

[00:09:17] And sometimes Egypt would extend a helping hand if it was safe to do so.

[00:09:21] Right.

[00:09:21] Right.

[00:09:22] Well, I guess I just wanted to point out that Egypt was a superpower that they had to deal with on a regular.

[00:09:26] Yes.

[00:09:27] Prior to being conquered officially by Babylon.

[00:09:30] Right.

[00:09:30] It's just that Babylon was the first one that did not have an outside or background relationship with them, came in and kicked their fucking asses.

[00:09:37] Right.

[00:09:38] And we're like, and you're done.

[00:09:39] Yep.

[00:09:40] So that, again, bears, bears stating specifically because it's a big deal.

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:45] All right.

[00:09:46] So the second beast, verse five reads, and there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear.

[00:09:52] It's your favorite.

[00:09:53] It is.

[00:09:54] Cause it's just a bear.

[00:09:55] It's just a bear.

[00:09:55] It was raised up on one of its sides and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth.

[00:10:01] A bear is slower, stronger, and more crushing than a lion.

[00:10:06] Okay.

[00:10:07] Like it kind of lopes along.

[00:10:09] Sure.

[00:10:09] As a lion pounces.

[00:10:10] Yeah.

[00:10:11] This bear had a voracious appetite for conquest.

[00:10:14] The second beast already eating one victim and getting ready to pounce on another symbolized the Medo-Persian Empire in its greedy conquest.

[00:10:25] Okay.

[00:10:26] And it replaced Babylon as the dominant world power.

[00:10:29] Got it.

[00:10:30] Okay.

[00:10:30] Yeah.

[00:10:30] As for the three ribs, the Persians dominated over the Medes in their relationship.

[00:10:37] So we'll talk about that a little bit more in the next chapter.

[00:10:42] But most think that the three ribs represented the Persians' great military conquests, which were Babylon, Egypt, and Lydia.

[00:10:52] Lydia?

[00:10:53] Lydia?

[00:10:54] Okay.

[00:10:54] I would say Lydia, but I don't know that.

[00:10:56] I'm not familiar with it.

[00:10:57] Got it.

[00:10:58] But I like it as a name for a person.

[00:11:00] Sure.

[00:11:00] Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:01] So, okay, the third beast.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:05] That would be verse six.

[00:11:06] After that I looked and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard.

[00:11:11] And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird.

[00:11:14] This beast had four heads and it was given authority to rule.

[00:11:18] So the leopard was known for its sudden unexpected attacks.

[00:11:22] And this one especially swift because of its four wings and was clever because it had four heads.

[00:11:32] Got it.

[00:11:32] So the third beast represented the swift conquest by Alexander the Great and the spread of the Greek Empire.

[00:11:40] And we'll talk about that a little bit more in next chapter too.

[00:11:42] So it kind of speaks to his military greatness that he was like, you know, like speaks to his way, the way he did it.

[00:11:48] Yes.

[00:11:48] So that's kind of cool actually.

[00:11:50] Yeah.

[00:11:50] And I kind of appreciated this breakdown.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:53] Alexander the Great quickly conquered the civilized world by age 28.

[00:11:59] In just 12 years he had subdued part of Europe and all of Asia.

[00:12:04] Wow.

[00:12:05] Right?

[00:12:05] Wow.

[00:12:05] That's amazing.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:07] Now, but then he died all of a sudden and on his death his empire was divided into four parts, which is again why there's four heads.

[00:12:16] Sure.

[00:12:17] Specifically the four heads were Cassander, Lysimachus, Sileukus, and Ptolemy.

[00:12:26] Okay.

[00:12:27] Who all inherited Alexander's domain.

[00:12:29] Got it.

[00:12:30] Okay.

[00:12:30] Yeah.

[00:12:31] So there's those guys.

[00:12:32] Okay.

[00:12:33] And the fourth beast, this one was like the weird one.

[00:12:37] Yes.

[00:12:37] Okay.

[00:12:37] The weirdness.

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:40] All right.

[00:12:41] So verse seven reads, after that in my vision at night I looked and there before me was a fourth beast, terrifying and frightening and very powerful.

[00:12:50] It had large iron teeth.

[00:12:53] It crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left.

[00:12:58] It was different from all the former beasts and it had 10 horns.

[00:13:02] Now, first of all, we kind of commented that this reminds us of the statue that was in King Nebuchadnezzar's vision.

[00:13:12] Yeah, a little bit.

[00:13:13] His dream or whatever.

[00:13:13] Sure.

[00:13:14] Like, it does have some resemblance to it with the 10 toes and the iron and stuff.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:21] So we are talking about a comparison of common ideas here.

[00:13:26] Right.

[00:13:26] Okay.

[00:13:27] The fourth beast with 10 horns and one conspicuous little horn was so terribly dreadful that it was beyond description and it symbolized the brutal all conquering Rome.

[00:13:40] Okay.

[00:13:40] Okay.

[00:13:41] So the Roman Empire was the final world dominating power before the rise of Christianity.

[00:13:48] Right.

[00:13:49] Okay.

[00:13:49] And we kind of knew that, but like I hadn't really understood it in those terms.

[00:13:56] Well, and more than that, Rome actually in the end kind of solidified the rise of Christianity.

[00:14:01] Yeah.

[00:14:01] I mean, they played a big part in that.

[00:14:04] Mm hmm.

[00:14:04] So that's kind of a big deal.

[00:14:06] Like you said.

[00:14:07] Yeah.

[00:14:07] Now, some suggest that the 10 horns on this creature were actually two five pointed antlers rather than 10 separate horns, which that would make more sense.

[00:14:18] But whatever, regardless from the many kingdoms, 10 horns brought together in the Roman Empire because, you know, they they conquered and conglomerated everybody that they rolled over.

[00:14:31] Right.

[00:14:31] One leader, a little horn.

[00:14:34] So that's like one little horn.

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:38] Grew.

[00:14:39] Um, that emerged as more ruthless than all the others.

[00:14:43] And he murdered those who opposed him and established himself as a cruel, unchallengeable dictator, oppressing and persecuting even the saints.

[00:14:52] And this is, I'm thinking what you were talking about when we were in the chapters of that guy.

[00:14:57] Um, Antiochus.

[00:14:58] Yes.

[00:14:58] Is that referring to him?

[00:14:59] Yes.

[00:15:00] Okay.

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] Antiochus Epiphanes.

[00:15:02] Got it.

[00:15:03] At least that's what scholars think.

[00:15:05] Sure.

[00:15:05] Yeah.

[00:15:05] That's what they think they're, they're referring to because of his cruelty.

[00:15:08] Got it.

[00:15:08] And we'll get into that a little bit more as well.

[00:15:11] Okay.

[00:15:12] Yeah.

[00:15:12] Daniel then had a vision.

[00:15:17] Um, what was I saying?

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:19] Sorry.

[00:15:19] I had scrolled and I want to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[00:15:22] Yeah.

[00:15:22] Daniel then had a vision of the fiery chariot throne of God upon which sat the ancient of days.

[00:15:30] Yeah.

[00:15:30] That was a little confusing to me because why are it, it seemed like it was God, but like,

[00:15:36] why are we referring to him as the ancient of days?

[00:15:39] Right.

[00:15:39] And then also, um, we're talking about that and all of a sudden in the same chapter, we're

[00:15:46] talking about the future.

[00:15:47] Right.

[00:15:48] And that's just weird.

[00:15:50] Like the far distant future.

[00:15:51] It was really confusing.

[00:15:52] Yeah.

[00:15:52] So this was definitely God though, or, you know, we, we all think scholars that is, I'm not

[00:15:59] a scholar, but scholars all are pretty sure.

[00:16:01] Yeah.

[00:16:02] That was God who judged the beasts.

[00:16:04] Okay.

[00:16:05] Okay.

[00:16:05] And the little horn dictator made such claims to power that God could tolerate him no longer.

[00:16:13] His day of judgment would come.

[00:16:15] And the three previous kingdoms were merely overthrown.

[00:16:19] Right.

[00:16:19] The ones that we talked about before they were quote unquote, merely overthrown.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:23] They were taken over rather than wiped out.

[00:16:26] But this fourth kingdom under the absolute rule of its arrogant dictator is going to be

[00:16:32] completely and mercilessly destroyed.

[00:16:35] But that's not, that's not what happened though.

[00:16:37] Rome definitely, you know, kept it was still petting power after Christianity started.

[00:16:43] But again, this is in the distant future.

[00:16:46] So they may not be talking about Rome of then.

[00:16:51] Okay.

[00:16:51] They might be talking about a Rome to come.

[00:16:54] Ah.

[00:16:54] Yeah.

[00:16:55] I know.

[00:16:55] I'm, I'm not trying to defend it.

[00:16:58] I'm trying to explain how it is sometimes interpreted for right or wrong.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:04] By apologists and scholars separately and together today.

[00:17:09] I just, I really hate the idea that because the Bible got it wrong, we have like, we have

[00:17:15] to reinterpret, right?

[00:17:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:17] Because it's the word of God to these people.

[00:17:19] It couldn't be wrong.

[00:17:20] It has to be just that it hasn't happened yet.

[00:17:22] Yeah.

[00:17:22] Yeah.

[00:17:23] No.

[00:17:23] But I mean, like if you, again, this is one of those instances where that if you,

[00:17:26] if you take the scholars at their word for what they've determined of these things

[00:17:30] probably meant, then it sounds like what we're talking about is the current Roman Empire.

[00:17:37] Right.

[00:17:37] Right.

[00:17:37] Now, what they, what they could be saying too is the other empires were all attacked from

[00:17:43] outside, whereas Rome crumbled from within.

[00:17:47] Sure.

[00:17:47] So that could be, you could say that, okay, that prophecy did come true.

[00:17:54] Right.

[00:17:54] So.

[00:17:55] I guess.

[00:17:55] Either it did come true in the way that I just said, or it hasn't happened yet and it's

[00:18:01] something to come in the future.

[00:18:02] We'll see.

[00:18:03] I don't fucking know.

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:04] Okay.

[00:18:05] Okay.

[00:18:05] So there's that.

[00:18:06] Now in place of this anti-God kingdom, a new kingdom will be set up.

[00:18:11] One that is different from all that has gone before.

[00:18:15] Yeah.

[00:18:15] Okay.

[00:18:15] It's going to be set up not by a beast like figure, but by a man like figure often assumed

[00:18:21] to be a coming Messiah.

[00:18:23] Okay.

[00:18:24] And that's where Jesus.

[00:18:26] Jesus.

[00:18:26] Yeah.

[00:18:27] This quote unquote, son of man is going to be given or was given authority, glory, and

[00:18:34] a kingdom that would never be destroyed.

[00:18:36] And so he exercised dominion over the earth.

[00:18:40] Hmm.

[00:18:41] Right.

[00:18:41] Okay.

[00:18:41] And I'm like, did you mean over that little area of that little continent?

[00:18:45] Because that didn't happen.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:47] One of God's heavenly servants turns to Daniel at this point and explains to Daniel the meaning

[00:18:54] of the vision.

[00:18:55] Because of those 10,000 by 10,000 or whatever.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Well, okay.

[00:18:59] So the ancient of days is sitting on his throne and he's surrounded by thousands.

[00:19:04] And those are his celestial beings, his angels or whatever.

[00:19:08] Sure.

[00:19:09] The thousands of thousands that are like beyond there.

[00:19:12] Those are all of his followers.

[00:19:14] Got it.

[00:19:15] Okay.

[00:19:15] Okay.

[00:19:15] So I forgot to say that.

[00:19:17] His followers, but are they, are they celestial or?

[00:19:21] Let's not talk about that.

[00:19:23] That was never stated.

[00:19:24] I don't know.

[00:19:24] Got it.

[00:19:25] Let's not talk about that.

[00:19:26] All right.

[00:19:26] Just people or beings that follow God, but they're not angels or celestial beings.

[00:19:32] Right.

[00:19:33] Okay.

[00:19:33] Yes.

[00:19:33] Yes.

[00:19:34] So the horn, the little horn, AKA the king will challenge three of the original 10 kings

[00:19:42] speak against God, oppress the saints and attempt to change times and laws.

[00:19:48] Yeah.

[00:19:48] After a period of distress and oppression, the dominion of the little horn will be taken

[00:19:53] away and the final judgment will result in the destruction of this little horns power

[00:19:58] and God's kingdom on earth will last forever.

[00:20:03] That's amazing.

[00:20:04] Right?

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:05] So that's what happened in chapter seven.

[00:20:07] And I'm still confused, but at least I have a little bit better understanding.

[00:20:12] Sure.

[00:20:13] Right.

[00:20:13] I mean, right.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:14] No, I mean, it's better than what they, the way it was portrayed in the, in the Bible.

[00:20:18] So yeah.

[00:20:18] Yeah.

[00:20:19] So let's move on to chapter eight and see if we can make some sense of that.

[00:20:22] Okay.

[00:20:23] This is where we get into Antiochus and the antichrist.

[00:20:27] Got it.

[00:20:27] Okay.

[00:20:27] So this is like going to be getting more into some future stuff.

[00:20:31] Got it.

[00:20:32] Okay.

[00:20:32] So this was about Daniel's vision of the ram and the goat.

[00:20:36] Yeah.

[00:20:37] The unigoat and then the quadrigoat.

[00:20:39] Yes.

[00:20:39] Exactly.

[00:20:41] Because it grew horn, different horns, different horns.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] Daniel's vision here is of a two horned ram destroyed by a one horned he goat.

[00:20:51] Right.

[00:20:52] Referring to the Persian and Grecian monarchies.

[00:20:55] Okay.

[00:20:55] So we're going back a little ways.

[00:20:57] Sure.

[00:20:57] Okay.

[00:20:57] Yeah.

[00:20:58] And this is followed by the history of the quote, little horn, which is thought by many,

[00:21:03] as you said, to represent the Greek King Antiochus Epiphanes, as he outlawed many Jewish

[00:21:09] customs.

[00:21:09] And we talked about some of those last time and there was math involved and, or something

[00:21:15] where he had stopped them from being able to sacrifice during their mornings and nights.

[00:21:21] Right.

[00:21:22] And he stopped a lot.

[00:21:23] He stopped them from being able to do a lot of the customs that they did.

[00:21:26] Sure.

[00:21:27] So he's ucky.

[00:21:28] Right.

[00:21:29] Okay.

[00:21:29] And that was about, let's see, his program sparked a popular uprising, which led to the

[00:21:35] retaking of Jerusalem and the temple by Judas Maccabeus in 164 BCE.

[00:21:42] Okay.

[00:21:43] Okay.

[00:21:43] So we're not quite there yet because we haven't reached the Maccabees.

[00:21:46] Right.

[00:21:47] But that, that's a thing that that happens during this dream or whatever.

[00:21:52] But it strikes me that, you know, what we, what we talked about early on with regard to

[00:21:55] the timeframe that Daniel was written in mostly, or at least brought together and added to,

[00:22:02] yes, would have been the 200 BCE timeframe.

[00:22:05] Right.

[00:22:06] And if this Maccabee movement happened in 164, the idea that they're doing propaganda already

[00:22:11] brewing, the idea that they're, they're building a propaganda towards their, for, for their

[00:22:16] God is it, it makes a lot of sense that like they're getting ready to rebel against this,

[00:22:22] you know, Antiochus.

[00:22:23] Yeah.

[00:22:24] So they're, they're trying to build unity.

[00:22:26] They're trying to build strength and to bring everybody together behind their God, which

[00:22:31] is how they were able to do the uprising.

[00:22:33] Right.

[00:22:34] Exactly.

[00:22:34] It makes a lot of fucking sense.

[00:22:36] Yep.

[00:22:37] And so I just, once again, political machinations, not religion.

[00:22:41] I think really you could take everything that's happened in the Bible with regard to history

[00:22:46] and you could, you could chalk it all up to political intrigue.

[00:22:51] Yeah.

[00:22:51] You know, like that's, that's really what it all boils down to.

[00:22:53] Basically the Bible is a huge history book of political intrigue and you just need to

[00:23:00] take all of the God out of it, all of the magic and just talk about this is what the

[00:23:05] people believed at the time.

[00:23:07] And this is how the leaders utilize that.

[00:23:10] I think it would be really interesting to take the studies that people have done around

[00:23:13] the Bible and take the stories from the Bible and put them together in a way that kind

[00:23:18] of describes the political machinations that are going on in that timeframe.

[00:23:23] Right.

[00:23:23] Because it just, it, it really, to me, it reads very political.

[00:23:28] Yeah.

[00:23:28] And it's, I know someone who's reading this from the God perspective is not going to see

[00:23:33] that because they're, they're seeing God.

[00:23:34] They're not seeing the politics.

[00:23:36] Right.

[00:23:36] But to me, someone who was interested in history, it comes right through.

[00:23:40] In history and politics.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:43] Yeah, definitely.

[00:23:44] And I'm interested in history and sociology.

[00:23:48] So when you explain it, I'm like, Oh, that tracks.

[00:23:51] So yeah, I I'm loving this.

[00:23:53] Yeah.

[00:23:53] So let's talk about some history now.

[00:23:55] Okay.

[00:23:56] Okay.

[00:23:56] All right.

[00:23:56] We're going back a little bit.

[00:23:59] Okay.

[00:24:00] I just re round, rewound back to five 50 BCE.

[00:24:04] Okay.

[00:24:04] Okay.

[00:24:04] Right.

[00:24:05] Though Babylon was still the dominant power in the region region, Persia had begun to challenge

[00:24:13] it.

[00:24:13] Okay.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] We know what happens there, but sure.

[00:24:17] We're pretending here for a minute that we don't know.

[00:24:20] The significant event of five 50 BCE was Persia's conquest of the formerly great kingdom

[00:24:27] of Medea.

[00:24:28] Okay.

[00:24:28] And we know that as well.

[00:24:30] Okay.

[00:24:31] Then in five 39 BCE, the combined armies of Persia and Medea conquered Babylon.

[00:24:37] And again, we saw that coming cause we knew it.

[00:24:40] Right.

[00:24:40] This combined Medo Persian power was pictured in the vision as a ram.

[00:24:45] One of whose horns Persia was higher than the other.

[00:24:50] Sure.

[00:24:51] Okay.

[00:24:51] Persia ruled till about three 33 BCE when Alexander the great came from the west and with unbelievable

[00:24:59] speed overran the Persian empire.

[00:25:03] Got it.

[00:25:03] Okay.

[00:25:03] His Greek empire was symbolized in Daniel's vision as a goat with Alexander as the large

[00:25:10] horn between the goats eyes.

[00:25:12] Got it.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:13] So like the last chapter was telling us some of this history.

[00:25:17] And now this chapter is telling us more, but we had to overlap.

[00:25:23] Right.

[00:25:24] What we already knew.

[00:25:25] And we're supposed to pretend like Daniel wrote this way back as a prophecy when actually

[00:25:29] it was written after these things happened.

[00:25:31] Exactly.

[00:25:31] Got it.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:32] All right.

[00:25:33] So at the height of his power, when only 32 years of age, Alexander suddenly died.

[00:25:38] His empire soon split into four sectors, which were the four new horns.

[00:25:43] Okay.

[00:25:44] You know, it strikes me also that part of the reason that they might have used such heavy

[00:25:49] symbolism is because they were writing it with, you know, afterthought, right?

[00:25:54] They're writing this after they already know about these events.

[00:25:56] So they're like, how can we make this sound like a vision that somebody had prior to this?

[00:26:02] Right.

[00:26:02] And so they, you know how it's a, it's a try hard, you know, like they tried too hard.

[00:26:06] Yeah.

[00:26:06] They, they added like too much symbolism to any animals.

[00:26:10] That's kind of how it, to make it seem more magical.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:14] So one of these sectors, you know, I said that Alexander's empire split into four.

[00:26:21] Right.

[00:26:21] So one of these sectors was centered on Syria from this sector.

[00:26:26] There arose many years later, a King, a little horn who attacked God's people and even God

[00:26:32] himself.

[00:26:33] This King was Antiochus Epiphanes.

[00:26:36] Right.

[00:26:36] And he stopped the regular sacrifices that the Jews offered each morning and evening.

[00:26:41] He set up Greek idols and a heathen altar in their holy temple.

[00:26:46] Okay.

[00:26:46] And he forced the Jews to carry out practices that he knew their law prohibited.

[00:26:50] So he was a real shit.

[00:26:52] Sure.

[00:26:52] This is not uncommon.

[00:26:54] Like that's not an uncommon practice in those days.

[00:26:56] Yeah.

[00:26:56] He was no more of a shit than any of the other conquerors.

[00:27:00] Right.

[00:27:00] And let's be clear.

[00:27:02] They were all conquerors.

[00:27:03] They all thought over land, even used religion to justify their fight over land.

[00:27:09] Even the Israelites.

[00:27:10] If you were not a full, you know, fledged, you know, Israelite and worship the way they

[00:27:15] worshiped, you were a second class citizen or a slave.

[00:27:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:18] You know?

[00:27:18] So, I mean, there was a heavy incentive to join or not be part of the society.

[00:27:23] Well, that and I mean the whole time that they were, you know, trying to conquer their

[00:27:28] own land and drive out the quote unquote Canaanites.

[00:27:31] Right?

[00:27:32] Yeah.

[00:27:32] Yeah.

[00:27:32] They were totally doing a land grab.

[00:27:36] Wiping out the people that did not believe the same things they believed.

[00:27:37] Right.

[00:27:38] Right.

[00:27:38] And they were doing a land grab and using religion to justify it.

[00:27:42] I just wanted to make sure I said it because, you know, this is, we're reading these texts

[00:27:46] from a very one-sided perspective.

[00:27:49] Sure.

[00:27:49] Right?

[00:27:49] And it's hard to like, step back from that when you're reading that take to examine, okay,

[00:27:56] well wait, they did this earlier and these people have these views and this, you know,

[00:28:00] like, you have to be able to step into other people's shoes to see the whole picture.

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:04] I don't think that Antiochus was like a complete shit more so than others.

[00:28:10] Right.

[00:28:10] He was, there were some conquerors that were less of a shit than he was.

[00:28:16] Definitely.

[00:28:16] Is what I'm trying to say.

[00:28:17] Yeah, no, I mean, Cyrus was obviously better and, you know, like, there's definitely examples

[00:28:21] where people were better.

[00:28:22] Exactly.

[00:28:23] But I'm just saying that things like this were not completely uncommon.

[00:28:26] No.

[00:28:27] That's all.

[00:28:27] No.

[00:28:28] So, this attack on the Jewish religion lasted more than three years or 1,150 days or 2,300

[00:28:38] morning and evening sacrifices.

[00:28:41] Got it.

[00:28:41] Got it.

[00:28:41] Yeah.

[00:28:42] And I'm laughing because, and you're laughing because we had gotten into a slight tiff over

[00:28:47] the math.

[00:28:47] Well, I just, I misunderstood how you had read it because it was like.

[00:28:50] Yeah.

[00:28:50] The math was also confusing.

[00:28:52] Yeah.

[00:28:52] So, yeah.

[00:28:53] So, that happened three years or so, whatever.

[00:28:56] Cruel, cunning, arrogant, and powerful Antiochus would slaughter the Jews, defile the temple,

[00:29:02] and blaspheme against God.

[00:29:04] Okay.

[00:29:04] The rule of Antiochus came to an end in 165 BCE.

[00:29:09] So, we've caught up to where we were now.

[00:29:11] Got it.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:11] Okay.

[00:29:12] When the Jews regained control of their temple, and then they cleansed and rededicated

[00:29:18] it to the holy worship of God.

[00:29:20] Okay.

[00:29:20] Okay.

[00:29:21] Now, there are a few other interpretations of the little horn that say, no, no, it wasn't

[00:29:28] Antiochus Epiphanes.

[00:29:29] Hmm.

[00:29:30] Some believe the little horn represents a future powerful world leader, possibly even

[00:29:36] the Antichrist.

[00:29:38] Got it.

[00:29:38] Okay.

[00:29:39] And then others view the little horn as symbolizing a collection of evil forces rather

[00:29:45] than any specific or literal individual.

[00:29:48] Okay.

[00:29:48] So, those are some of the other thoughts out there.

[00:29:51] I'm sure these are thoughts that are more modern because, you know, we can see what this

[00:29:56] would have represented if we look at history.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:59] And when it doesn't work out correctly, that's when you have to rewrite what you're thinking.

[00:30:03] Yeah.

[00:30:03] I'm content with thinking that it was Antiochus because he fits the shoe.

[00:30:09] It makes sense based on when they were writing it.

[00:30:11] It makes sense based on a lot of things.

[00:30:13] Based on what he did.

[00:30:14] Yeah.

[00:30:14] You know?

[00:30:15] So, to me, that holds the most weight.

[00:30:17] Right.

[00:30:18] All right.

[00:30:18] So, that's chapter eight.

[00:30:19] I feel a little bit better about that.

[00:30:21] There were so many horns and horns and horns.

[00:30:24] I was like not getting all of the history.

[00:30:26] Also, I didn't understand that chapter eight kind of did a rewind and recovered some of the

[00:30:33] same history that was already covered in chapter seven.

[00:30:36] Right.

[00:30:36] So, like I need things to be laid out side by side.

[00:30:40] Yeah.

[00:30:40] So, that is cleared up a little bit better for me.

[00:30:43] For sure.

[00:30:43] For sure.

[00:30:44] For sure.

[00:30:44] All right.

[00:30:44] So, let's get into chapter nine.

[00:30:46] Okay.

[00:30:47] All right.

[00:30:47] So, Dan I L does some serious math and figures out when something important is going to happen.

[00:30:54] Okay.

[00:30:54] Okay.

[00:30:54] Yeah.

[00:30:55] This part of the Bible is really important for understanding later parts of the Bible.

[00:30:59] Was this someone with the 70 weeks that was 70 years that was 62 days and 35 seconds

[00:31:06] and whatever?

[00:31:06] I think so.

[00:31:07] Okay.

[00:31:07] Yeah.

[00:31:07] Right.

[00:31:07] Yeah.

[00:31:08] So, this part of the Bible is really important for understanding later parts of the Bible,

[00:31:13] especially when we get into the New Testament.

[00:31:15] Okay.

[00:31:15] Okay.

[00:31:16] Even though this part was not written for a New Testament audience, when we get into the

[00:31:23] New Testament-

[00:31:23] They make it work.

[00:31:24] We have to know where the New Testament drew its material from.

[00:31:29] Of course.

[00:31:29] And this is one of them.

[00:31:31] Sure.

[00:31:31] Okay.

[00:31:31] Okay.

[00:31:32] So, just putting it out there that we need to pay attention.

[00:31:34] Right.

[00:31:35] Because this will come back.

[00:31:36] I guess.

[00:31:37] No, I know.

[00:31:38] I know.

[00:31:38] They will make it come back.

[00:31:40] I get it.

[00:31:41] I get it.

[00:31:41] I just don't buy it.

[00:31:42] That's all.

[00:31:43] No.

[00:31:44] I'm not saying that this stuff happens in the New Testament.

[00:31:48] Right.

[00:31:48] What I'm saying is that when we're studying the New Testament, they're going to quote

[00:31:52] some of this shit.

[00:31:53] I understand.

[00:31:54] I understand.

[00:31:55] Okay.

[00:31:55] I'm just saying like even on the basis of just reading this chapter, it's so-

[00:31:58] Annoying.

[00:31:59] Yeah.

[00:32:00] Yeah.

[00:32:00] Like it doesn't- We don't even have to get into the New Testament before I'm like, no, this

[00:32:03] was- this is stupid.

[00:32:04] Yeah.

[00:32:04] We can't even just like read it for what it is.

[00:32:07] We have to read it knowing that at some point it's going to be parsed and-

[00:32:11] Right.

[00:32:12] Abused, basically.

[00:32:13] Yeah.

[00:32:14] Right.

[00:32:14] And that sucks.

[00:32:15] Yeah.

[00:32:15] Because it has its own different-

[00:32:17] Meaning.

[00:32:18] Meaning and understanding, you know?

[00:32:19] Yeah.

[00:32:20] So Daniel begins this chapter by confessing the sins of the Israelites, including himself.

[00:32:25] Remember that?

[00:32:26] He's like, oh God, you're so great.

[00:32:27] We suck so hard.

[00:32:28] Yeah.

[00:32:29] We're the worst.

[00:32:29] The absolute worst.

[00:32:31] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[00:32:32] Please forgive us.

[00:32:32] Sure.

[00:32:33] He acknowledges the nation's disobedience to God's law and the subsequent judgment that

[00:32:38] they have faced.

[00:32:39] And then he asks for God's mercy and the restoration of Jerusalem.

[00:32:43] Okay.

[00:32:44] Yep.

[00:32:45] In response to Daniel's prayer, an angel reveals a prophecy about the future of Israel.

[00:32:50] This prophecy is centered around the concept of 70 weeks.

[00:32:54] So that's where we get into that.

[00:32:57] And this is where it starts getting a little weird.

[00:32:58] No, it was already a little weird.

[00:33:00] Yeah.

[00:33:00] This is where it starts getting a lot weird.

[00:33:02] While the exact meaning of, quote, a week in this context is debated, it's assumed that

[00:33:11] it generally refers to a period of seven years.

[00:33:15] But why?

[00:33:16] So we're not just saying one year.

[00:33:20] Yeah.

[00:33:20] We're not saying that one week is one year.

[00:33:22] We're saying that one week is seven years.

[00:33:25] No, I got it.

[00:33:26] I get it.

[00:33:27] So each day of the week is one year.

[00:33:29] But why not just say that?

[00:33:31] It's a week of years is what they're saying.

[00:33:34] Because it was more poetic or something.

[00:33:37] I don't fucking know.

[00:33:38] All right.

[00:33:39] Whatever.

[00:33:40] I feel like this is just some bullshit added in after the fact kind of.

[00:33:45] I mean, okay, but the way it read was very confusing.

[00:33:47] It was.

[00:33:48] When they were like a week of weeks of days.

[00:33:50] Like.

[00:33:51] Right.

[00:33:51] Even just by itself, it's confusing.

[00:33:53] I think I commented at the time.

[00:33:54] I feel like it was muddled because they didn't have an exact answer.

[00:33:58] Sure.

[00:33:59] Right?

[00:33:59] Like what they're trying to do here, they were trying to muddy the water so that it could

[00:34:03] be interpreted in any number of ways.

[00:34:05] Sure.

[00:34:05] And I don't disagree with that.

[00:34:07] So that's just how I feel about it.

[00:34:09] Sure.

[00:34:09] Sure.

[00:34:10] The prophecy outlines a timeline of events leading up to the coming of a Messiah.

[00:34:16] Okay.

[00:34:16] And that's where I said that sometimes they bend the math real hard to make it line up

[00:34:21] with when Jesus came.

[00:34:23] Yeah.

[00:34:23] Okay.

[00:34:23] I got it.

[00:34:24] Sure.

[00:34:24] It speaks of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the coming of an anointed one, and a period

[00:34:29] of great tribulation.

[00:34:31] Sure.

[00:34:32] This prophecy has been a subject of intense study and interpretation for centuries.

[00:34:37] So me and you sitting here at this table ain't going to figure it out.

[00:34:40] No, but if I recall correctly, we got to the end of that chapter and there's something

[00:34:43] that was said about what was going to happen after the anointed one shows up and it's nothing

[00:34:49] that happened.

[00:34:50] Right.

[00:34:50] So like even in the prophecy that they worked so hard to make happen and attribute to Jesus,

[00:34:56] right?

[00:34:57] The actual prophecy itself doesn't fully hit home with regard to what it did.

[00:35:02] Right.

[00:35:02] But that just means it's still to come.

[00:35:04] But how can you have it come true and also still to come?

[00:35:08] The same people that are saying that it came true, they are not the same people that are

[00:35:14] saying it's still yet to come.

[00:35:17] Okay.

[00:35:18] But if it didn't come, then that means Jesus didn't come.

[00:35:20] Right.

[00:35:21] The Jewish, no, that's not true.

[00:35:22] Okay.

[00:35:23] The Jewish people do not believe that this prophecy has been fulfilled yet.

[00:35:27] Right.

[00:35:28] No, I get that.

[00:35:28] So there's that.

[00:35:30] Right.

[00:35:30] But the Christians do believe that this is the fulfillment of that prophecy, right?

[00:35:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:35] So therefore, that wrongness of what happened when Jesus did come, according to the Bible,

[00:35:43] should be enough to say that that prophecy was false.

[00:35:46] But it's not.

[00:35:47] It's not.

[00:35:48] And I don't remember exactly what it was because it's been a few days since we read it.

[00:35:52] But I do remember commenting on it at the time.

[00:35:54] So.

[00:35:54] I'm going to put a pin in it for now only because, A, we haven't got there yet.

[00:35:59] Sure.

[00:35:59] And B, because we haven't got there yet, I have not looked into the history and stuff

[00:36:04] of that time to be able to form a cohesive and cogent argument.

[00:36:10] Got it.

[00:36:10] Well, and I'm sure we'll be, I mean, this is Jesus.

[00:36:13] Like, this is stuff about Jesus that we're going to be talking about later.

[00:36:16] Yeah.

[00:36:16] So I'm sure we'll come back to this quite a bit.

[00:36:19] Oh, we will.

[00:36:20] We will.

[00:36:21] Yep.

[00:36:21] All right.

[00:36:22] So this prophecy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:36:24] Many scholars believe it provides a framework for understanding key events in biblical history

[00:36:30] and prophecy.

[00:36:31] Okay.

[00:36:31] The prophecy begins with a directive to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls.

[00:36:36] And some people claim this historical event took place after the Babylonian captivity

[00:36:43] because they did rejoin and they did rebuild Jerusalem.

[00:36:47] And that makes some sense.

[00:36:48] Yeah, sure.

[00:36:48] Okay.

[00:36:49] A period is specified for the appearance of, quote, an anointed one, the Messiah.

[00:36:55] Right.

[00:36:56] This is when many believe Jesus Christ appears.

[00:36:59] Yeah.

[00:36:59] There's a reference to a cut off Messiah, which is often interpreted as Jesus's crucifixion

[00:37:06] because he was cut off.

[00:37:08] His life was cut off from earth.

[00:37:10] Right.

[00:37:11] A period of great tribulation or desolation is foretold, which aligns with other biblical

[00:37:17] descriptions of the end times.

[00:37:19] These passages often paint a picture of a period of intense suffering, upheaval and judgment.

[00:37:26] Some key biblical references can be found in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel from the Old

[00:37:32] Testament and Matthew and Revelation from the New Testament.

[00:37:36] And I think that that was like the part that like this Messiah, if we're to trust Christianity's

[00:37:42] take on this.

[00:37:43] Right.

[00:37:44] After the Messiah came, there's supposed to be this period of, you know, bad.

[00:37:48] Right.

[00:37:49] Or whatever.

[00:37:49] The whole in times things is going to be happening.

[00:37:53] Right.

[00:37:53] Yeah.

[00:37:53] Are we in?

[00:37:54] And I guess that Christians just believe that it's ongoing until it ends.

[00:37:58] I don't I don't really know.

[00:37:59] Like this whole period that we're in since Christian since Jesus is apparently all that.

[00:38:04] I don't know.

[00:38:05] Again, it's a good question, but I'm putting a pin in it.

[00:38:09] Yeah, no, I know.

[00:38:09] Because we're not there yet.

[00:38:10] I got it.

[00:38:10] I got it.

[00:38:11] No, I'm not telling you not to ask these questions.

[00:38:13] I'm just saying, yep, that's a good question.

[00:38:16] Right.

[00:38:16] Right.

[00:38:17] Maybe maybe we'll read a better answer or confirmation later.

[00:38:21] Sure.

[00:38:22] The prophecy concludes with the confirmation of a covenant with many for one week.

[00:38:29] So I don't know what that means, but.

[00:38:32] Right.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:33] Okay.

[00:38:34] Again, one week can be seven years.

[00:38:37] Possibly.

[00:38:37] Maybe.

[00:38:38] Maybe 70 years, maybe 700 years.

[00:38:40] Yeah.

[00:38:41] 7000.

[00:38:42] I don't know.

[00:38:42] Who knows?

[00:38:43] So that's chapter nine.

[00:38:45] Still really confusing, but at least I understand the words a little bit better.

[00:38:50] Sure.

[00:38:51] All right.

[00:38:51] So we're going to get into Daniel chapter 10.

[00:38:55] And again, this is the beginning of his final vision.

[00:38:58] Okay.

[00:38:59] Yeah.

[00:38:59] So Daniel has a super scary encounter with a very bright angel.

[00:39:04] Yeah.

[00:39:05] This is a pivotal moment in the book in that it shifts the narrative from cryptic visions,

[00:39:11] like dream things to a direct interaction between Daniel and a heavenly being.

[00:39:16] Right.

[00:39:17] Okay.

[00:39:17] Even though he did speak to another guy in one of his visions.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:23] This is like.

[00:39:24] In one of his dreams.

[00:39:25] Yeah.

[00:39:26] In one of his dream vision.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:27] This is like a waking vision.

[00:39:29] Like dude is in his room talking to him.

[00:39:31] But apparently there was other people there that didn't see what he saw.

[00:39:34] Right.

[00:39:34] So it was just him, but they were scared of something.

[00:39:37] So.

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:37] I don't know.

[00:39:38] The whole thing is a little like.

[00:39:40] The angel tells Daniel that he's been sent to help God's people and to explain some

[00:39:46] of the crazy shit that Daniel has seen.

[00:39:49] Okay.

[00:39:50] Okay.

[00:39:50] Daniel spends three weeks in intense prayer and fasting, seeking understanding of the

[00:39:56] visions that he's received.

[00:39:57] Mm hmm.

[00:39:58] This period of spiritual preparation underscores that he understands the importance of the

[00:40:04] encounter to come.

[00:40:05] Or that he's nuts.

[00:40:07] Right.

[00:40:07] One or the other.

[00:40:08] Yeah.

[00:40:08] He's either a religious fanatic or he really did see an angel.

[00:40:14] Right.

[00:40:14] And I know which one I believe.

[00:40:16] I mean, if you went through a fasting period of three weeks, you might be just be seeing

[00:40:19] visions because you went through the past fasting period of three weeks.

[00:40:23] Yeah.

[00:40:23] I might be hungry.

[00:40:24] Right.

[00:40:24] I might eat your head off.

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:27] An extraordinary being described as a man clothed in linen appears to Daniel by the

[00:40:33] Tigris river.

[00:40:35] This figure often interpreted as an angel or a celestial being tells Daniel that he's been

[00:40:41] sent to help God's people and to explain some of the crazy shit that he's seen, which

[00:40:45] I already said.

[00:40:46] Daniel with the he's filled with fear and weakness, but being the but the being reassures

[00:40:54] Daniel and strengthens him like gives him a power up.

[00:40:58] Yeah.

[00:40:59] And prepares him to receive the message.

[00:41:00] OK.

[00:41:01] OK.

[00:41:01] This chapter is a change from the symbolic language of the previous chapters to a more direct form

[00:41:09] of divine communication.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:12] Yeah.

[00:41:12] Setting the stage for the detailed prophecies and historical insights that follow in the

[00:41:17] coming chapters.

[00:41:18] Now, I did not even get into the fact that this guy that came to talk to him had been held up

[00:41:25] for a week.

[00:41:26] Right.

[00:41:27] That was crazy.

[00:41:27] That was three weeks.

[00:41:29] Wasn't it?

[00:41:29] However long.

[00:41:30] Yeah.

[00:41:30] He was like he couldn't get away.

[00:41:32] Right.

[00:41:32] And then Michael had to come save him.

[00:41:34] I thought that because we're starting a new vision.

[00:41:39] We'll just kind of wait to see how this pans out.

[00:41:41] Yeah.

[00:41:42] And then I will get more into that next weekend.

[00:41:45] Right.

[00:41:46] To see if we've learned more by then.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:48] Because the idea that a celestial being can be detained by evil spirits or some.

[00:41:53] Right.

[00:41:54] And the fact that the celestial being and Michael are the only two that are on their side or

[00:41:59] something.

[00:41:59] Yeah.

[00:41:59] Like the whole thing is really weird what it's leading into.

[00:42:02] Like it really gets out of the historical things that are happening and the kingdoms

[00:42:09] like talking about who conquered whom and which kingdoms are in charge and it gets away

[00:42:16] from all of the political intrigue and it just starts going off into sci-fi land.

[00:42:20] Yeah.

[00:42:20] And I can't with that.

[00:42:22] It strikes me that we're reading through this, these prophecies, these visions, these

[00:42:27] dreams and I'm using the word weird a lot.

[00:42:31] Mm hmm.

[00:42:32] I think I need to get out of thesaurus because I just I'm like the amount of times that I've

[00:42:37] said weird just even in this episode.

[00:42:40] Yeah.

[00:42:40] Is bothering me because I hear myself saying it and I'm like, I need to come up with a

[00:42:44] new word for that because.

[00:42:46] Peculiar.

[00:42:46] Yeah.

[00:42:47] Odd.

[00:42:48] Bizarre.

[00:42:48] But I need like a list in front of me so I can, you know, just pick from it.

[00:42:51] Like, OK, this time it's going to be, you know, that.

[00:42:53] Yeah.

[00:42:54] I think I'm going to start using bizarre because I like that one.

[00:42:57] Sure.

[00:42:57] Sure.

[00:42:58] That's a good one.

[00:42:58] And it does describe the right, which is probably why the word weird is stuck in your

[00:43:03] head because that's the word in the general zeitgeist.

[00:43:05] Sure.

[00:43:06] That is very true.

[00:43:07] That's very true.

[00:43:08] Not totally your fault.

[00:43:09] Right.

[00:43:09] So was.

[00:43:10] Did you have anything else for us or that's where we're kind of leaving off with this

[00:43:13] today?

[00:43:13] Um, I don't have anything else.

[00:43:16] I'm, I'm, I put a pin in several of your questions and then I put a to be continued

[00:43:23] on the last one.

[00:43:25] Right.

[00:43:25] I don't know that I really answered any questions.

[00:43:29] I still am confused about what's happening.

[00:43:32] I don't feel confident.

[00:43:34] Uh, I could not discuss this with a Christian and come away feeling like that.

[00:43:40] I had held my own in a conversation because I don't feel like a Christian could told their

[00:43:46] own, but they would think that they would.

[00:43:49] Sure.

[00:43:49] There's, there's a lot of things that you can just either, you can make up your own meaning

[00:43:53] for.

[00:43:54] Sure.

[00:43:54] Right.

[00:43:54] So like anybody can have a conversation about this and mean what they mean, but it doesn't

[00:43:59] necessarily mean what it means.

[00:44:01] Right.

[00:44:01] Whereas I, I don't, I don't necessarily require a definitive description, but I want something

[00:44:08] to make sense.

[00:44:09] Like you don't have to tell me that was definitely Antiochus that they were talking about, but

[00:44:13] to say, Oh yeah, that fits.

[00:44:15] That's a puzzle piece that fits.

[00:44:16] That was probably Antiochus.

[00:44:18] Right.

[00:44:18] Based on X, Y, Z information.

[00:44:20] Yeah.

[00:44:20] This makes sense.

[00:44:21] Right.

[00:44:21] I'm also prepared for new information to come to light to say, Oh, that wasn't Antiochus

[00:44:26] after all.

[00:44:27] Definitely.

[00:44:28] For all intents and purposes though.

[00:44:30] Sure.

[00:44:30] I, I agree that you're right.

[00:44:32] That's probably Antiochus.

[00:44:34] Right.

[00:44:34] Right.

[00:44:36] So is that a, that's it.

[00:44:37] Okay.

[00:44:37] So I would like to say this real quick here.

[00:44:40] I don't, I don't ask for this a lot lately.

[00:44:42] We've kind of got our new intro and, and everything's kind of like very baked in the way we do things

[00:44:47] on our podcast, but I really could use your guys' help.

[00:44:50] We could, if you were listening on Spotify or Apple podcasts or anywhere that lets you rate

[00:44:54] our podcast, please go there now and give us a five-star review.

[00:44:57] We definitely, it helps us out more than you could imagine.

[00:45:00] And we really could use some of that help right now to boost listenership, to get people more,

[00:45:06] you know, to get ourselves seen out there a little bit more.

[00:45:08] It juices the logarithm or algorithm.

[00:45:11] Yeah.

[00:45:11] Yeah.

[00:45:11] And then just one more note that I do want to mention here.

[00:45:15] If anybody is going to be available on September the 7th, anywhere near Kentucky, well, Cincinnati,

[00:45:23] because it's going to be in Covington, there is the Kentucky Free Thought Convention coming

[00:45:27] up on that day.

[00:45:29] And I think it's 45 bucks to get in.

[00:45:32] We'll be there.

[00:45:34] Seth Andrews will be there.

[00:45:35] There'll be some other speakers there as well.

[00:45:37] Definitely make a point to head out there, head to their website, just look up Kentucky

[00:45:42] Free Thought Convention or head to our website and go to the events page.

[00:45:46] And we've got a link to it directly from there.

[00:45:48] And you can come there and visit us while we're sitting in our booth.

[00:45:51] I was just going to say, if y'all do end up showing up, please stop by and let us see you.

[00:45:55] Yes.

[00:45:56] Yeah.

[00:45:56] We definitely want to talk to you.

[00:45:57] Yeah.

[00:45:58] That would totally fucking make our day.

[00:46:00] It really would.

[00:46:01] It really would.

[00:46:02] That being said, I think that's all we've got for today.

[00:46:05] Yes.

[00:46:05] So we will be back in a little bit here.

[00:46:09] We're doing this kind of, we're catching up today.

[00:46:11] So we're going to finish up our.

[00:46:14] Patreon.

[00:46:15] Yeah.

[00:46:15] So it's a part two we're doing for the project 2025.

[00:46:19] Correct.

[00:46:20] And then I will get the weekly wrap up out today and then we'll be back on Monday.

[00:46:24] Which is tomorrow.

[00:46:25] Which is tomorrow.

[00:46:26] With Daniel chapter 11.

[00:46:29] All right.

[00:46:30] We'll see you then.

[00:46:31] Okie dokie.

[00:46:32] Bye.